Why did I get checkraised on the turn?

[krishanleong]

I'm trying to figure out the agression levels at 15/30. It seems like a turn cr means a lot less than it did at low limits. A much higher % of the time it's a semibluff. So here is the hand.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Now I know I butchered this hand horribly. I should have 3-bet the turn and called down if capped. And since I didn't, not betting the river seems really bad also.

My question is, what hands should I be putting Villian on at the turn. My read was an decent player. 18/12/1.5 stats. I'm guessing in order of likelyhood pair+flushdraw, J, 7or4, Ac, 2 pair, and set, straight, flush are all equally unlikely. Is this about right?

Thanks for the help,

Krishan

[oscark]

Unless you have a read on the BB you aren't sharing, I don't like three betting the turn. However, you have to bet that river after his check.

[krishanleong]

The read is, "My read was an decent player. 18/12/1.5 stats." VP$IP/PFR/Postflop Av Agression.

Hmm.. Maybe I jumped the gun here. I figured since people seem to cr the turn with smaller hands, the 3-bet with an overpair would be standard. Can more people chime in?

Thanks oscark.

Krishan

[M2d]

since it's the BB calling the pfr, I think his range of hands puts the straight and the flush into play. I don't like the turn three bet idea. at this point, with a hand that has value, but is very vulnerable to a bunch of river cards (and may already be dead), I like to get to showdown cheaply, if possible. I also like to give the other player enough rope to hang himself. If he's the type that will see the river with any club and will bet when checked to (your action, if you check the turn, looks like a standard missed hand), then check call the turn.

You should have bet the river when checked to.

[krishanleong]

I'm not sure I understand this

[ QUOTE ]
If he's the type that will see the river with any club and will bet when checked to (your action, if you check the turn, looks like a standard missed hand), then check call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have position.

Krishan

[JRegs]

What about this?

Three-bet the turn. If he caps, you're beat. If he calls, you might have bought yourself a free river (he checks it to you, you check behind). If he calls and bets out on the river, you'll probably end up calling.

[oscark]

I don't get this. Why 3 bet and risk it being capped for a free showdown, when you can guarantee yourself a showdown just calling for the same price?

[M2d]

My bad. that's what happens when I try to read 2+2 at work.

I meant that if you choose a passive line and check through on the turn, and if he's the aggressive type, you'll likely have him take a shot at you on the river, whether he has anything or not. in this case, you can possibly sacrifice a little on the turn in order to save a bet (if he hits or if he actually has you beat). You actually wouldn't lose out on that much, since a missed draw probably mucks the river to your bet anyway.

Where you'd really lose out is if he'd follow up on the river with a bet after check-raising you with nothing. then you don't collect. If a muck on your part is anywhere in the gameplan, though, you may want to choose the more passive tact, as that will save you from making misreads and sacrificing the whole pot.

[Jeffage]

You played the turn fine. The river is a simple bet because most opponents will not checkraise twice. His check says he can't beat an ace, which means he can't beat a couple of Queens either. Bet and watch him pay off with a jack and some high club or whatever.

Jeff

[steveyz]

I think calling the turn is fine. But bet the river. Good chance villian has a J with a club or some other mediocre hand and will probably call a river bet.

[PassiveCaller]

i don't think a 3-bet on the turn is necessary here.. but if he checks to you on the river a bet is pretty necessary.

[3rdCheckRaise]

You played the turn just fine but river bet is a must. He was probably check raising with something like K /images/graemlins/club.gifJ or even J10 /images/graemlins/club.gif and you have to admit that it is not a bed spot to chekraise with KJ...

[krishanleong]

It's a great spot to cr with KcJ. That's why I thought 3-betting might bet right. Learning something new every day is a good thing. Villian turned over Js9d for the pair of jack no flush draw.

Krishan

[JRegs]

You're paying the same price either way, but if you three-bet, that gives you an additional way to win the pot (he could fold). By calling and paying off the river bet, you've paid the same amount, but you have not given your opponent the chance to fold.

[TStoneMBD]

3betting the turn with the plan of calling down if capped is a losing play if you think you are behind. if you are 3betting the turn to make a draw pay, then you have to be comfortable folding to a reraise to compensate. otherwise you will get run over by real hands. assuming BB will only raise the turn on a hand that beats you, or a semibluff, he has a hand that beats you far more often in this situation. 3betting the turn to make a draw pay extra is a winning play, but it will backfire on you during the times when are behind and arent able to fold.

[krishanleong]

I like this advice. I haven't ever 3-bet and folded to a raise. But I can see how one is suppose to use it now. Thanks,

Krishan

[Alexthegreat]

I don't like the 3-bet....Since he's playing from the BB he could have any kind of hand, including 2 pair, a straight, a flush....yada yada yada......Call the turn and bet the river if checked to....It's the same as 3-betting and checking behind, and no, you aren't giving him a chance to fold a better hand, but I just can't see a better hand folding here to a 3-bet....

[JRegs]

My mistake. I should have said in the original post that if your opponent caps the turn, you are beat and you should fold. I stopped at "you are beat."

[amulet]

you should not 3 bet the turn. it may be a bluff based on the 3ed club, but a set and a flush are possible, just call it down. he may also have the A of clubs and be trying a semi bluff to get you to fold. as for the A on the river, yes you probably bet, although if the player is known to check raise i might call. additionally based on my earlier thoughts it is possible he has an A. however, i think the plays are just call on the turn, and bet the river when he checks.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get this. Why 3 bet and risk it being capped for a free showdown, when you can guarantee yourself a showdown just calling for the same price?

[/ QUOTE ]
You are WAY to attached to showing down hands. Your game will always have gaping holes in it until you learn to divorce yourself from the need to showdown your hand.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
You played the turn just fine but river bet is a must. He was probably check raising with something like K J or even J10 and you have to admit that it is not a bed spot to chekraise with KJ...

[/ QUOTE ]
You got this half right. A lot of people will check-raise w/ a hand like K/images/graemlins/club.gif Jx, or J/images/graemlins/club.gif x. But if that's the case, only calling the turn isn't the right play.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
you should not 3 bet the turn... he may also have the A of clubs and be trying a semi bluff to get you to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
You just said not to 3-bet, then gave a reason why you should 3-bet! If he 4-bets the turn you're probably drawing dead and can fold.

The problem with only calling the check-raise and calling/betting the river is that you miss getting an extra bet when he is semibluffing his strong /images/graemlins/club.gif. 3-bet the turn and check behind the river, planning to fold if he puts in another bet/raise somewhere.

There are some opponents you can't take this line against, because their aggression factor is too high (meaning you could see a worse hand - or hand you have a lot of outs against like 2 pair - put in another bet/raise), but the vast majority of Party 15-30'ers this is the appropriate line.

If you had the Q/images/graemlins/club.gif I'd be less inclined to 3-bet, since you can't fold to the cap.

[TStoneMBD]

this past week ive learned something in poker so significant that most players dont really understand the principles of it. i am fortunate to play in live games in which players are very passive, and arent capable of reraising the turn on a semibluff or straight bluff. when you have few outs to improve, raising the turn and checking down against these players is a phenominal play. players are not able to fold to turn raises against my anymore as they fear i may be raising with a weaker holding than their own and therefore get paid off far more often. i make draws pay more. i make better hands fold. this is something that all players should learn to incorporate in their games. the problem with using this tactic online is that players are capable of reraising the turn with less than stellar holdings, and therefore it makes it difficult to fold alot of hands.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem with using this tactic online is that players are capable of reraising the turn with less than stellar holdings, and therefore it makes it difficult to fold alot of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
This line is easier to take live than online, sure. But even in the super-aggro Party 15-30 games, you won't be capped on the turn very often by hands you would want to call down against. And the times that you are, it will virtually always be by opponents who are known to be like that.

Data-mining and PokerTracker notes should cover your back in this situation.