Clearly check-raise the flop ?!

[jordanx]

Live 4-8 game.

I'm SB w/ A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif

4 players limp, I raise, button calls, everyone calls.

Flop(6 players)
J /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

This table is typically loose but I've seen flops get checked around.

I'm first to act and I bet...

Should I check raise this instead of value-betting?

[SCfuji]

i think betting is the best here. you want people to stick around for 1-bet and pay out when you hit your draw, no?

[MattC]

only if you are sure one of them will bet.

[Knoler]

ew, no!

You want to keep the callers in! You've got tons of outs -- nut flush draw, backdoor broadway straight, and overcards. Any paint card makes you a hand or gives you more outs. Your pot equity on the flop is likely huge!

If you c/r the field, they'll all fold. Bet out, and hope that you'll somehow be able to charge the whole field even more than one bet.

Regards,
-Brian

[MattC]

you guys are wrong, because if he checks and someone else bets, and the rest call then you check raise, they already have one bet in and are thus more likely to call the check raise, plus the check raise could potentially buy you a free card on the turn if you choose to take it.

[MoreWineII]

Bet & hope somebody raises so you can 3-bet.

[Knoler]

[ QUOTE ]
you guys are wrong, because if he checks and someone else bets, and the rest call then you check raise, they already have one bet in and are thus more likely to call the check raise, plus the check raise could potentially buy you a free card on the turn if you choose to take it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strenuously disagree, and I think this is just bad poker advice.

There's no way to think that the person just to your left is going to be the one to bet. (Unless, of course, this being live -- you can see that he's ready to fire chips in!)

Since you can't guarantee that the person just to your left will bet, and you don't want to raise if someone in the back bets, and you DEFINITELY don't want this checked around, you've got got *got* to bet.

Regards,
-Brian

[MattC]

which is why I said check raise only if you are sure they will bet. otherwise i agree bet, hoping to 3 bet.

i dunno i remember reading somewhere in HEFAP that check raising here is the correct play if you are sure someone will bet. i think that if someone checks after you if you check might not even call the bet you make anyways.

i mean either they have enough to play against this flush draw or not.

[Knoler]

[ QUOTE ]
which is why I said check raise only if you are sure they will bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is "they?" Which position? Because if it gets checked around, that sucks. If the button or one of the last to act bets, that sucks too.

He's first to act on the flop -- how can he be sure that one of the first couple of limpers will bet?

Regards,
-Brian

[MoreWineII]

You have absolutely no idea where the bet would come from in this hand.

I agree that if you were psychic and knew that the player to your left would bet, then check-raising might be the way to go.

If the player to your right bets, then what are you going to do? Raise and shut out the whole field with your monster draw? Call and put one pissant bet into the pot on this flop?

[MattC]

okay well i said check raise only if you were sure that a bet would come where needed. obviously this is hard to tell but otherwise i completely agree, bet out.

[MoreWineII]

Against six players, I think the likelihood that someone will raise behind him (and that some other people will call) is pretty good too, especially considering that the table is loose.

Then hero can 3-bet and basically accomplish what you're talking about - trapping people into this pot for multiple bets.

[MattC]

yeh your right.

[jordanx]

Okay, so I bet and the player directly to my left raises.

Gah.

Only one other called and later I would come to realize that he is a 'hand protector' and will most always raise to force cold callers.

Normally I bet out in a situation like this with 3+ players, my thinking must've been skewed towards check raising here because of the results.