A question about staking...

[coffeecrazy1]

I read in another forum about a disagreement arising between two friends over the terms of one staking the other.

It got me to thinking: what is the "industry standard" agreement for staking someone, and what would be a possible improvement over that? Also, how do you deal with a non-poker player who wants to stake you? Do you tell them that it's a bad idea? Do you just explain the risks? I'm brimming with questions over this.

The next step is getting someone to volunteer to stake me... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[snowbank]

what is the "industry standard" agreement for staking someone

50%

The next step is getting someone to volunteer to stake me...

Don't count on it unless you can prove you are a winning player, but have to use your bankroll for expenses or something like that. Probably 90-95% of winning players don't need stakes.

[coffeecrazy1]

I was actually kidding about the getting staked thing...it would be a rare event that, even if presented with the option, I would go for it.

[GuyOnTilt]

50%

50% would be absolutely ridiculous. That's the industry standard in Rounders, which we all know is a great place to find real-life poker information. From what I hear and my experience, it's right around 30%.

GoT

[theBruiser500]

You mean if I stake someone $100 I should get 70% of their winnings right? Not 30%

[GuyOnTilt]

You mean if I stake someone $100 I should get 70% of their winnings right? Not 30%

No.

GoT

[Ray Zee]

yes. but on one play even that is very generous. those that give half dont do so for long. only on long term stakes do players get 50 or 60 percent and only the very best do those deals. the others that do both end up broke.
in most higher stakes staking, the player gets half and owes if he loses that half. so he gets a loan to play on and the staker gets half the action for putiing up all the money now. this is in cash games. but applies to tournys as well.
in general only friends and suckers stake anyone.

[theBruiser500]

So in high stakes game I would loan someone 100k, and if they won 100k, I'd get my 100k back and another 50k, if they lost it all, he'd still owe me 50k. Thanks very interesting, my stake deals in the past have been real bad for me.

[Andy B]

I was staked over a period of several months in cash games and got 50% of my winnings. My backer was a poker player, and I wouldn't want to be staked by someone who didn't play, i.e., someone who doesn't understand what a bumpy ride this can be.

[Evan]

I am being staked right now by a friend that is a poster on 2+2.

He gets 25% of my winnings and takes 100% of any loss. I keep all bonuses and rakeback (I play almost entirely online). I pay him his portion of my winnings every two weeks and either of us can end the deal whenever we want.

[John Ho]

Forgive me if your friend reads this...but you are getting a sweet deal. I have never been staked but I haven't heard of anyone with a deal that good.

[worm33]

[ QUOTE ]
I am being staked right now by a friend that is a poster on 2+2.

He gets 25% of my winnings and takes 100% of any loss. I keep all bonuses and rakeback (I play almost entirely online). I pay him his portion of my winnings every two weeks and either of us can end the deal whenever we want.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow you run good thats an absolutely amazing deal. I have never heard of anything even remotely close to that. I have staked 2 different guys in the past both were I take 100% of the loss and get the rakebacks, and he got 35% of the win. Which I believe is MUCH more standard.

[Evan]

I know its a very good deal for me.

I should mention that the reason for the stake was just so that I could play a bigger game, not because I had no bankroll left. So me taking a deal under the conditions you mentioned wouldn't make any sense for me since I could make more playing in a smaller game that I could afford on my bankroll.

Nevertheless the deal is great and I am lucky that he offered to do it.

[Matt Flynn]

at that rate you should be able to get just about anyone you want to play for you, especially if you are willing to put them into higher stakes than they can afford.

a no brainer deal for the player.

matt

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
at that rate you should be able to get just about anyone you want to play for you, especially if you are willing to put them into higher stakes than they can afford.

a no brainer deal for the player.

matt

[/ QUOTE ]

This was obviously a favor from someone for whom the money involved wasn't a big deal, not a situation where the staker was trying to make the best investment possible with his money.

scrub

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]

a no brainer deal for the player.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

EDIT: Yes to scrub's post too.

[snowbank]

I should mention that the reason for the stake was just so that I could play a bigger game

That's what I'm trying to do. If he's interested in staking anyone else, I'd be interested. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Evan]

I don't want to put a lot of words in his mouth...but he wasn't really looking for anyone to stake. A situation came up where I was talking to him about playing a bigger game because someone else was possibly going to stake me. Then he said that if I ended up not taking the deal that he would be interested.

I don't know if he's looking for anyone else. Sorry.

[GuyOnTilt]

Forgive me if your friend reads this...but you are getting a sweet deal. I have never been staked but I haven't heard of anyone with a deal that good.

Like someone said, staking is for friends. Other than that, it's not usually going to be a very good idea. And when I'm staking a friend, I'm not out to profit at their expense, I'm looking to help them out and be a good friend. Most of the percentages I'm reading about in here are just ridiculous for the player. They're the ones putting in the hours and doing all the actual labor; I'm just supplying them. The staking deals I give out to "friends" are pretty close to identical to what Evan's getting. In fact, it's just about exactly the same as a stake with a respected 2+2'er that we just ended that I'm pretty sure I know who his staker is. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif But the point is, if I'm staking a friend, I'm about being a friend first and a "businessman" last. That last stake with Evan's exact plan earned me a 115% RoI in 2 months. Sure it could've been a hell of a lot more if I wanted to take a big amount of the guy's earnings, but why would I? It makes it harder on the player and gives them a higher chance of not succeeding. My goal in staking friends is to help them out, not make it harder on them to put a couple extra bucks in my pocket.

Be a friend.

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

This was obviously a favor from someone for whom the money involved wasn't a big deal, not a situation where the staker was trying to make the best investment possible with his money.

Exactly, though even with 25% minus rakeback and bonuses, the staker is going to earn far more than he could elsewhere in the market.

GoT

[Evan]

I actually talked to the poster that you staked when we were wroking out my deal. He is not the one staking me if that's what your guess was.

I completely agree with your post though. Staking friends is largely about doing a favor and helping someone.

[snowbank]

Na, I wasn't really looking to be staked. Probably wouldn't turn it down though. You got a nice deal.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
This was obviously a favor from someone for whom the money involved wasn't a big deal, not a situation where the staker was trying to make the best investment possible with his money.

Exactly, though even with 25% minus rakeback and bonuses, the staker is going to earn far more than he could elsewhere in the market.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming Evan is a winner in the game, which was by no means certain when the arrangement was struck.

Also, the risk to the stakers money here is substantially higher than in most traditional investments.

But I totally agree with your other post in the thread, and knowing Evan and the staker, that's obviously what was going on here.

scrub

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
Like someone said, staking is for friends. Other than that, it's not usually going to be a very good idea. And when I'm staking a friend, I'm not out to profit at their expense, I'm looking to help them out and be a good friend. Most of the percentages I'm reading about in here are just ridiculous for the player. They're the ones putting in the hours and doing all the actual labor; I'm just supplying them. The staking deals I give out to "friends" are pretty close to identical to what Evan's getting. In fact, it's just about exactly the same as a stake with a respected 2+2'er that we just ended that I'm pretty sure I know who his staker is. But the point is, if I'm staking a friend, I'm about being a friend first and a "businessman" last. That last stake with Evan's exact plan earned me a 115% RoI in 2 months. Sure it could've been a hell of a lot more if I wanted to take a big amount of the guy's earnings, but why would I? It makes it harder on the player and gives them a higher chance of not succeeding. My goal in staking friends is to help them out, not make it harder on them to put a couple extra bucks in my pocket.

Be a friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. I am being staked by a friend due to some expenses I had to take care of. We worked it out so that we are both profiting from the deal.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Forgive me if your friend reads this...but you are getting a sweet deal. I have never been staked but I haven't heard of anyone with a deal that good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am the mystery staker. It is, of course, a very good deal. But knowing how much Evan plays and how well he plays, this investment is incalculably higher in expectation than any of the investments I have made in equities for instance. With how well he plays, I am virtually guaranteed not to lose and guaranteed to earn a pretty ridiculous % so long as he doesn't run very badly for very long and then give up, which is pretty unlikely. And lastly, the stake needed for his game doesn't effect my lifestyle or levels of poker I play at all, so it was, as we say, a no brainer.
-James

[John Ho]

I see your point but you are taking ALL the risk. It just doesn't make sense to only take 30%. If you wanna be generous just give your buddy money to play. But this whole idea of staking a "buddy" and still taking a % strikes me as absurd. I've staked buddies and almost always lost money. Eventually I just loaned them a stake and said pay it back if you win otherwise it's on me.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
I see your point but you are taking ALL the risk. It just doesn't make sense to only take 30%.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think in my deal with James it makes a lot of sense from both sides. It doesn't affect him at all to have the money he gave me unavailable and giving him a higher percentage of my winnings would make it better for me to play on my own money. We both make more with him taking 25% of my earn.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
I see your point but you are taking ALL the risk. It just doesn't make sense to only take 30%. If you wanna be generous just give your buddy money to play. But this whole idea of staking a "buddy" and still taking a % strikes me as absurd. I've staked buddies and almost always lost money. Eventually I just loaned them a stake and said pay it back if you win otherwise it's on me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've almost always lost money then your buddies suck at poker or you were making a bad arrangement. I would never stake someone unless I was virtually certain they were a long term winner in the game they were playing in. And if the person is a winner, you really can't find a better investment. And if it helps a friend advance his poker career a bit, there really is no downside.
-James

[dogmeat]

Successful investors (and this includes poker backers) have a skill the average person does not: They understand the risks and are excellent judges of character and ability, and they know how to say no to 98% of the possible borrowers who are not the best risks. This is no less a skill than poker itself.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif