Some NFL polls on Brady, etc.

[Daliman]

Well, there was a long thread on this, so I'm going to post a few polls about it just to see the general tenor of the forum.


P.S. The other players are added in because I had put a list of 10 other players I'd take before brady and there was some disagrement.

[jakethebake]

The Tomlinson or Moss opr Brady questions don't even make sense. It depends on who I get for a QB or the other positions if I don't tkae that player.

[nothumb]

If someone offered a trade of Manning for Brady, we'd have to take it. But we'd probably regret it come playoff time. Also, Foxboro is inhospitable to Peyton. So maybe not.

The others are all easily 'Brady' votes.

NT

[BottlesOf]

The only one that seems nuts right now is Tomlinson v. Brady. Brady should be way in front.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
The Tomlinson or Moss opr Brady questions don't even make sense. It depends on who I get for a QB or the other positions if I don't tkae that player.

[/ QUOTE ]

They were in reference to a post I made before mentioning that i'd take them before Brady, so yes, somewhat ancillary.

[istewart]

Hey Massholes, can it be spelled both Foxboro and Foxborough?

Thanks, I've been torn over this recently.

[Daliman]

Seems a bit Brady-leaning thus far. Should the Pats lose in Pittsburg, I may repost part of this poll.

Interesting sidenote; where is Roethlisberger in all this talk; all he's ever done is win in the NFL, which is all that matters, right? If he wins the SB,(which I happen to think he will), is HE now the best QB in the NFL?

[Lumpy]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Massholes, can it be spelled both Foxboro and Foxborough?

Thanks, I've been torn over this recently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is very common. I lived in Marlborough, which was also spelled Marlboro.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]

Interesting sidenote; where is Roethlisberger in all this talk; all he's ever done is win in the NFL, which is all that matters, right? If he wins the SB,(which I happen to think he will), is HE now the best QB in the NFL?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he isnt.

All these morons don't understand that its a team game and that no quarterback other than maybe Vick could ever be responsible for more than like 10% of teams performance.

People who would seriously take Brady over Manning are either

A) Patriot fans
B) Retarded

The whole "Brady wins games" argument is one of the stupidest things in the world. The patriots defense wins games, Brady doens't win games.

[daryn]

brady = cool under pressure, makes plays when they count

manning = head shaker /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Interesting sidenote; where is Roethlisberger in all this talk; all he's ever done is win in the NFL, which is all that matters, right? If he wins the SB,(which I happen to think he will), is HE now the best QB in the NFL?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he isnt.

All these morons don't understand that its a team game and that no quarterback other than maybe Vick could ever be responsible for more than like 10% of teams performance.

People who would seriously take Brady over Manning are either

A) Patriot fans
B) Retarded

The whole "Brady wins games" argument is one of the stupidest things in the world. The patriots defense wins games, Brady doens't win games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agrred with almost all of what you say, but MAN, I just cant get on the Vick bandwagon just yet. They beat Philly, and I may to to the station tho.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
brady = cool under pressure, makes plays when they count

manning = head shaker /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Did the plays not count in 2002, when they didn't even MAKE the playoffs with a similarly talented team to 2003?(Maybe moreso, as they jettisoned Malloy beginning of last year, right?)

[Lazymeatball]

I agree that the Pat's D is a great influence in the Pat's success, more so than any single player. But the Pat's offense, conducted largely in part by Tom Brady won those two SuperBowls with their final drives, capped off by Adam Vinatieri field goals. The whole teams was responsible for those drives, and Brady helped out. i would say "Brady helps" win games. But I agree he doesn't win them by himself.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
All these morons don't understand that its a team game and that no quarterback other than maybe Vick could ever be responsible for more than like 10% of teams performance.

People who would seriously take Brady over Manning are either

A) Patriot fans
B) Retarded

The whole "Brady wins games" argument is one of the stupidest things in the world. The patriots defense wins games, Brady doens't win games.

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem with this arguement is that all QBs aren't the same but with varying degrees of ability. They're all different. Brady may win Superbowls with his own team, but not the Colts and vice versa. Just because you win with one team doesn't mean you win with another, EVEN IF IT'S A BETTER TEAM! The chemistry might not be there. The offensive schemes might not fit him. The coaches might not be right for him. There are a million things. Just saying he's better so he'd win with that team doesn't work.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
brady = cool under pressure, makes plays when they count

manning = head shaker /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Did the plays not count in 2002, when they didn't even MAKE the playoffs with a similarly talented team to 2003?(Maybe moreso, as they jettisoned Malloy beginning of last year, right?)

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't get it. all i know is when brady is in a high pressure playoff game win or go home situation, he wins! the whole team wins, like meatball said.

but seriously, brady is a big part, those superbowl drives.. oh baby, there's a reason he has 2 superbowl mvp's.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
brady = cool under pressure, makes plays when they count

manning = head shaker /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Did the plays not count in 2002, when they didn't even MAKE the playoffs with a similarly talented team to 2003?(Maybe moreso, as they jettisoned Malloy beginning of last year, right?)

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't get it. all i know is when brady is in a high pressure playoff game win or go home situation, he wins! the whole team wins, like meatball said.

but seriously, brady is a big part, those superbowl drives.. oh baby, there's a reason he has 2 superbowl mvp's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because no one else sttod out in either, and they don;t give kickers the MVP.

[daryn]

i am saying he stood out. esp. against the rams. that drive... oh baby.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
i am saying he stood out. esp. against the rams. that drive... oh baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

MVPs don't throw interceptions in the red zone in the 4th quarter leading 21-16.

[Daliman]

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[ QUOTE ]
i am saying he stood out. esp. against the rams. that drive... oh baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

MVPs don't throw interceptions in the red zone in the 4th quarter leading 21-16.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be willing to bet Montana did this more than once.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
i am saying he stood out. esp. against the rams. that drive... oh baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

That drive should never have happened. Even madden said with :48 seconds left the Pats should play for OT.....

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
People who would seriously take Brady over Manning are either

A) Patriot fans
B) Retarded


[/ QUOTE ]

This part made me laugh. Nice.

But are they mutually exclusive?

Now THAT was rough of me, but hey, a little friendly ribbing.

The Pats win more games with Manning. The Colts win fewer games with Brady without defensive improvement.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
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i am saying he stood out. esp. against the rams. that drive... oh baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

MVPs don't throw interceptions in the red zone in the 4th quarter leading 21-16.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be willing to bet Montana did this more than once.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a Super Bowl? I don't recall many Montana games, so I don't know.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
i am saying he stood out. esp. against the rams. that drive... oh baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

That drive should never have happened. Even madden said with :48 seconds left the Pats should play for OT.....

[/ QUOTE ]

dumbest comment ever

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
i am saying he stood out. esp. against the rams. that drive... oh baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

MVPs don't throw interceptions in the red zone in the 4th quarter leading 21-16.

[/ QUOTE ]

but against the rams!! the rams!!

[RogerZBT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i am saying he stood out. esp. against the rams. that drive... oh baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

That drive should never have happened. Even madden said with :48 seconds left the Pats should play for OT.....

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's when I lost all respect for Madden. How is that not the dumbest thing ever said by an announcer? If you can't trust your offense enough to given you one minute of play without turning the ball over, you're basically admitting you're the worst coach in history and have done nothing to prepare your team.

The Rams offense was a machine that year and if they won the toss there was a very good chance of a field goal. And if NE wins the toss, they have to give the ball to that offense they didn't trust at the end of the regulation. Or was the plan going to be pray for a defensive touchdown?

Sitting on it makes ZERO sense. All it does it send the message that you feel you're not good enough.

[tolbiny]

"All these morons don't understand that its a team game and that no quarterback other than maybe Vick could ever be responsible for more than like 10% of teams performance."

And you are the idiot who doesn't realize that manning's contract cripples his team. You also dont realize that manning's inflexibility was what cost them the game last week- his inablity to cope with a superior defense has broken that team time and again.

[tolbiny]

"The Pats win more games with Manning"

This is close to the dumbest thing in this thread. Do you not remember how the patriots set a RECORD for the most consecutive wins EVER!!! How on earth can you contend that they would have won More games with Manning? I just don't get it.
You think they would have won three SB's in a row too?

[Phoenix1010]

The Patriots win because of their insane defense and offensive line. Brady's a great QB, but not nearly the best. He doesn't need to be the best with that supporting cast though. Put Manning (the best) in that pocket with a dominating defense to get him the ball back and they don't lose a game.

Regards,
Steve

[[censored]]

I don't really see how it would be possible for the Patriots to "win more" with Manning over Brady.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really see how it would be possible for the Patriots to "win more" with Manning over Brady.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, let's see, the patriots played 16 games, and won 14...

[Algasm]

Didn't Trent Dilfer win 19 straight starts and a super bowl. How important is a QB as long as he doesn't turn the ball over?

[Richard Tanner]

TO be fair, if Egderin James doesn't fumble twice in the Red Zone in week 1 the Pats never even see that record.

Cody

[tolbiny]

"Put Manning (the best) in that pocket with a dominating defense to get him the ball back and they don't lose a game."

Brady and the pats did this for a hell of a span.

As i have state before, i have two problems with Manning.
1. Hes inflexible. If you look at the game film from last week the Colts had no problems moving the ball when they were in the two min drill. Which they did twice- once at the end of the first half, and once at the end of the game. Both times they had shots at touchdowns (though the second time it was irrelevent at that point). But the rest of the game Manning surveryed the defense, called his audibles, did his production, and then the Patriots fell into their real D, so Manning was basically guessing the whole game. He let the pats dictate the flow when he was on the field. He failed to make the adjustments nessecary to win the game, so they lost.
2. He costs 80 mill. He has crippled his team in terms of the salary cap. Dungy is one of the better defensive coaches in the nfl, but they struggle year in and out because the spend 80% of their dough on offense.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
2. He costs 80 mill. He has crippled his team in terms of the salary cap. Dungy is one of the better defensive coaches in the nfl, but they struggle year in and out because the spend 80% of their dough on offense.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the worst argument ever. He costs so much precisely because he is the best. Basically with this argument you are saying you would rather have Brady because you don't have to pay him that much because he isnt very good. How does that make him a better QB than Manning?

[tolbiny]

So you fail to address my main point and then....

You may see it as a poor point- but i was asked who would i rather have? in today's nfl you have to be cap conscious, and i never pay a player as much as manning makes.
secondly, he makes so much because his stats are so gaudy- if you want to make the argument that stats are the most important thing, then you go right ahead. But i will take super bowl victories any day. Thats what i want as a fan, that's what i would want as an owner (well actually big merchandising deals, and full stadiums as an owner).
I think Manning is way overpaid precisely because people put to much of an emphasis on stats, and i think there are at least three Qb's who could put up very similar numbers on that team.
Culpepper, Manning, Mcnabb. Hell, i think that Hassleback could put up some tremendous numbers if they ever gave him recievers who could hold on to the ball. Put him on the Packers this year and i think they do better than they did with Farve (much as i love the guy).

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Culpepper, Manning, Mcnabb. Hell, i think that Hassleback could put up some tremendous numbers if they ever gave him recievers who could hold on to the ball. Put him on the Packers this year and i think they do better than they did with Farve (much as i love the guy).

[/ QUOTE ]

Put any of those guys on the Patriots and they win just as many games as Brady has.

[Lazymeatball]

Actually, that is the whole Belichek design under the salary cap rule of assigning each position a specific value and not over paying for any position. That is why Lawyer Milloy, the best safety in the league. was cut. Because he demanded too much money (which he probably deserved, I dunno). Do you get it now? Why Belichek wouldn't overpay for every position int he Colt's offense?

PS. how much control does Belichek have over personenel decisions? I am grossly uninformed in this department?

[jstnrgrs]

[ QUOTE ]
That drive should never have happened. Even madden said with :48 seconds left the Pats should play for OT.....

[/ QUOTE ]

And it sure is a good thing John Madden doesn't coach the Patriots.

Seriously, Why would you take a knee to get a situation where you might never see the ball again when you already have the ball with a chance for a game winning drive.

[tolbiny]

yeah- but Mcnabb, Culpepper, And Manning have all been in big games and put up goose eggs. All three multiple times. When Brady does that maybe i will consider you statements about them being good enough to lead my team when i have the choice.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah- but Mcnabb, Culpepper, And Manning have all been in big games and put up goose eggs. All three multiple times. When Brady does that maybe i will consider you statements about them being good enough to lead my team when i have the choice.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your problem is that you equate the teams performance with that of the quarterback.

Take Culpepper for example. The biggest game he was in was the 2000 NFC championship. The Vikings were down 14-0 before Culpepper ever touched the ball, was that Culpepper's fault?

[BadBoyBenny]

Sounds a lot like Shottenheimer and Edwards this year.

[NLSoldier]

People are already starting to say the same "hes a natural winner BS" about Rothlisburger. Look at last week. He sucked, but his team won due to defense and some luck. Going by just Ben's performance the Steelers should have gotten crushed.

[tolbiny]

Brady now has three years as a winner in this league (the year after th3eir first superbowl was rough, i know) there is a huge difference between being overhyped like rothesberger has been this year (though clearly he has talent) and being appreciated as a tremendous qb like brady is.
And Culpepper has thrown tons of games down the Culcrapper. Last year against arizona in a game they had to win he had a mediocre game, when he should have been lights out-dominating to force his team into the playoffs.
Every time brady has been in a big game he has won it. Every, single time for three years now.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Last year against arizona in a game they had to win he had a mediocre game, when he should have been lights out-dominating to force his team into the playoffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, Culpepper should have been out there in the secondary when they gave up that touchdown on the last play of the game. Brady's defense gives up game losing plays like that all the time, right?

[BadBoyBenny]

I think the Pat's get good value for their money with Brady, so I agree with you. However, you will see Brady lay a goose egg Sunday against Dick Lebeau's D. Count on it.

[BadBoyBenny]

Rothlisberger had the 5th best passer rating in the league as a rookie. Playing against some of the best defenses in the league. He had two bad games, so he has trouble with the Jets. How is he overhyped?

[BadBoyBenny]

Wouldn't that be Pioli's design and wouldn't the defense that stopped the Colts be Romeo Crennel's? Why does everyone assume Belichek micromanages the whole organization?

[tolbiny]

Arizona should never have been in that game. Minnasota's offense should have blown out Arizona's d, which after several good weeks had managed to crawl up to something like 8th worst in the league. Its funny how you have to keep making excuses for all the QB's you name, and then almost "blame" Brady for being on a better all around team. Untill Culpepper, Mcnabb, or Manning shows up for the biggest game of the year, i wouldn't lose any sleep having brady over any of them.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Untill Culpepper, Mcnabb, or Manning shows up for the biggest game of the year

[/ QUOTE ]

And by show up, you mean win?

It takes way more than the quarterback "showing up" for the team to win. For example, In the Seahawks loss to the rams, Hassellbeck threw a good pass with the game on the line and his reciever straight up dropped it. Had Brady thrown that pass and his reciever dropped it, would you say Brady didn't "show up" for the big game?

Another example:

Did Culpepper "not show up" last week? His defense didn't give him much help, and he was on the wrong end of a fumble into the endzone as well as a fumble that was not recovered due to Claiborne not re establishing himself in bounds. He also had an interception that was batted up in the air and came down in the hands of the D lineman. But I guess the team lost because Culepper didnt show up, huh?

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That drive should never have happened. Even madden said with :48 seconds left the Pats should play for OT.....

[/ QUOTE ]

And it sure is a good thing John Madden doesn't coach the Patriots.

Seriously, Why would you take a knee to get a situation where you might never see the ball again when you already have the ball with a chance for a game winning drive.

[/ QUOTE ]

No Idea. At the time, it seemed to be the 2nd stupdest thing an analsyt had ever said, to Jerry Glanville's entire broadcasting career.

[apd138]

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i am saying he stood out. esp. against the rams. that drive... oh baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

MVPs don't throw interceptions in the red zone in the 4th quarter leading 21-16.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be willing to bet Montana did this more than once.

[/ QUOTE ] I think Montana has 11 TD's and no int in his 4 superbowls, im about 99% on this.

[holeplug]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Untill Culpepper, Mcnabb, or Manning shows up for the biggest game of the year

[/ QUOTE ]

And by show up, you mean win?

It takes way more than the quarterback "showing up" for the team to win. For example, In the Seahawks loss to the rams, Hassellbeck threw a good pass with the game on the line and his reciever straight up dropped it. Had Brady thrown that pass and his reciever dropped it, would you say Brady didn't "show up" for the big game?

Another example:

Did Culpepper "not show up" last week? His defense didn't give him much help, and he was on the wrong end of a fumble into the endzone as well as a fumble that was not recovered due to Claiborne not re establishing himself in bounds. He also had an interception that was batted up in the air and came down in the hands of the D lineman. But I guess the team lost because Culepper didnt show up, huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

There was that 41 to 0 game a couple years ago too... And the Giants sure were a great team that year.

[banditbdl]

[ QUOTE ]
Arizona should never have been in that game. Minnasota's offense should have blown out Arizona's d, which after several good weeks had managed to crawl up to something like 8th worst in the league.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure how many Vikings games you have watched the last few years but their coaching staff has an astounding ability to go extra conservative offensively on the road against shitty teams allowing the opponents to stay in the game and make fluky TDs like in that Arizona game. Daunte can't blow the Cardinals out by himself if his coaches are too chickenshit to let him.

[Rick Diesel]

Am I starting a new team, in which I would MUCH rather have L.T. than Brady, or do I have the option of adding L.T. to the Patriots and removing Brady, in which case I would MUCH rather keep Brady because the Pats already have Dillon?