need more experience...or balls?

[boondockst]

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP2 ($7.10)
MP3 ($10.45)
CO ($9.15)
Button ($3.85)
SB ($5.05)
Hero ($6.20)
UTG ($8.90)
UTG+1 ($8.45)
UTG+2 ($10.30)
MP1 ($9.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.1</font>, UTG folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds.


I know i have to play this different but i didn't want any garbage hands in....raising the pot is sooo standard on UB, but 0.45 didn't seem like enough.....

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
I know i have to play this different but i didn't want any garbage hands in....

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? (Seriously try to answer that)

[boondockst]

afraid of 4 handed play....earlier i got a board of KKQ and the guy showed KQ....

[MarkL444]

And youd rather safely win .25 every time you get aces?

[boondockst]

i don't usually play it that way....i'm open for a suggestion as to checking or the exact size to raise in this situation.

[MarkL444]

About half of that.

You need to think in terms of long run expectation. Sure if you take less flops with AA you'll lose less HANDS. But you wont make nearly as much MONEY.

[boondockst]

cause crap like this happens (sure it's isolated) and yes i
should have called the river bet (didn't want to punch my computer when he showed J2o, but shoulda called)


Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($2.40)
Hero ($17.41)
BB ($6.55)
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($4.22)</font>
UTG+1 ($13.98)
MP1 ($5.15)
<font color="#C00000">MP2 ($10)</font>
CO ($9.05)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG+1 calls $0.10, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.5</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.40, MP2 calls $0.40.

Flop: ($1.60) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.6</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls $1.60.

Turn: ($4.80) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4.8</font>, MP2 calls $4.80.

River: ($14.40) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $3.1 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

[PoBoy321]

I'd say bad fold. You're getting 6:1 on your money. Bottom card is paired. If he hit his gutshot, he hit it, but I'm not giving up $17 that easily. I'd expect to see T9 or AT just as often, if not more so than a J or an 8.

[MarkL444]

Preflop- nice
Flop- nice
Turn- nice
River- terrible

[boondockst]

indeed, he said he tried saying he had 10 9 for two pair but i'm not sure i believe that..

[PoBoy321]

11X BB is a HUGE raise. Make it .5 or .6 and make your decisions after the flop.

[boondockst]

i gave the villain too much credit...i didn't know what hand he would have smoothcalled with other than a straight draw....i suppose he could have had QQ or KK but not likely

[PoBoy321]

I wouldn't be surprised if he was telling the truth. Nonetheless, even if he did have a J and you lost this hand, you're being results oriented. Call and live with the results.

[PoBoy321]

If he had a straight draw, was it more likely that he had a J (for a gutshot, 10% to hit on the river) or a 9 (20% to hit)?

[boondockst]

the added boat possibility and set possibility scared me as well...

[PoBoy321]

Still, unlikely. Actually, scratch that. It can be likely. It can be VERY likely. You can be 80% sure that you're beat and it doesn't matter. 20% of the time, you're not, and you win. This makes it +EV.

[boondockst]

20% of the time? that's crazy IMHO.....he smoothcalls with a crap hand???? those are decent sized-bets...

[jtr]

Seriously, if you're going to make an 11 x the big blind raise, you might as well push all-in. Weirdly, this is more likely to get callers in low-stakes NL as people will often assume you are trying some idiotic move with a small pocket pair or whatever.

[Biff M.]

You just gave him the pot, I'm sure he's happy.

Seriously. Considering the stacks, bet the river. He will call you with anything. And he probably did this with "anything" as well.

[boondockst]

wow.

i don't want to offend anyone

but just b/c you play with $100 at a crazy Party NL $25 table you can't assume he had "nothing" b/c we're playing measly 0.10 BB...yes i should have called...yes i am very sure i was beat.

[PoBoy321]

The only hands you're worried about are T8, 87, TT, 88, 77 or a J. The J is unlikely as he wouldn't have called up to the river for a gutshot. T8 and 87 are just as unlikely since it was raised pre-flop. As it is, you're worried about a lower pocket pair hitting a set against you. Getting 5:1 on the river, I would call this every time, because you don't need to have the best hand very often for this to be the right play. In this case, I think you folded the winner.

[PoBoy321]

The point was that at low limits, players are more apt to make stupid, crazy plays. No one is trying to make fun of low-limit players. Our point is just that very often, you will see players with very marginal holdings.

The way that the hand played out, it seems like you were ahead, but you're missing on of the biggest points. The pot was huge compared to the size of the river bet. You may have been ahead. You had to call $3 to win $17. On the off chance that you had the winner, you should have called, because otherwise you're costing yourself money.

[boondockst]

wow i'll say it for the 28th time this thread......I SHOULD HAVE CALLED.

[PoBoy321]

I realize that you understand you should have called. I want to make sure you understand the reasons WHY. I don't just think that you should have called because the pot was big, but because based on the way the hand played out, I think you were ahead.

[boondockst]

you feel that players play with rags, yet do not feel they would chase a straight????

[PoBoy321]

It's doubtful that he has absolutely nothing. Even most fish are capable of laying down a gutshot. The way that the hand played out, T9 seemed like the most likely holding, and he was playing it to hit the straight. If he had T8, 87 or a set, this is a scary board and it is unlikely that he would slowplay. TP + OESD seems like his most likely holding. I don't think that I ever said you're DEFINITELY winning this hand, I said it was very likely.

There's no need to get pissy. I can tell that you're an honest student of the game and are trying to improve. I'm just trying to help you see why you're probably ahead here. If the river had come with a 6, a J or a T, then it would have been a different matter. I would still call but think that you're probably behind. The fact that he called you down up to the river suggests that he has a fairly strong holding, rather than a questionable draw. T9 is the most likely candidate.

[kurto]

Just to be the devil's advocate... I don't necessarily think that was a bad play. The fact of the matter is, in this situation, everyone folded. But at these tables (at least on Pokerstars), many people will call that raise, and with crap. A bet of 4-5xBB at the 10 cent tables often doesn't mean anything. I've raised that amount with pocket aces and had 5-6 callers. The more callers, the more chance your aces will be broken. Sometimes, you can go all in with pocket aces, and people will call you with hands like A-2 and 8-J suited.

LAST NIGHT - PS .10 BB
2 limpers to me in late position... I raise to $1. 1 caller. Board flops 3-8-Q rainbow. I bet $2. The other guy goes all in (another $3). I call. Turn is another queen. River is X. He turns over a Q-2 suited.

If these people will call with Q-2 suited for $1, a .40 bet isn't gonna do anything.

[jimdmcevoy]

With a big hand (like AA), your goal preflop is to get it heads up, bet accordingly.

If you thought just betting the pot would get many callers, then I reckon it is correct to raise more. How much more depends on your opponents.

If you thought that most of the time some one would call you here preflop and just got unlucky nobody did this time, you played it correctly.

I think you are right that getting 4 callers when you have AA sucks real bad, I would prefer just one or two.

[theredpill]

In the BB with AA with only 3 other players in, I'm checking. If the board gets scarey, drop them.

[Wayfare]

Worst thing you can do besides folding them.

Please stop posting bad advice on these boards, someone might be fooled.

[mason55]

Why in gods name would you check? Do you hate money? That's the only reasonable explanation...

[edge]

My standard raise is 4xBB + 1 for each limper. Here, I'd probably make it around .60 (.50 for each limper to call).

[boondockst]

not assuming anyone else feels/sees this but with UB's "bet pot" button, any raises above or below the pot are looked at very strangely and suspiciously

[Kaz The Original]

This is horrible unless you are REALLY BAD at post flop play. Infact, if you were PERFECT at post flop play you might want to min raise. If you were the worst post flop player ever you would want to push. If you are somewhere in between, you raise x4 or x5.

The reason for this is, any money you get in preflop works for you over the long run. Now, lets say your opponent had a 1 in 10% chance of flopping a hand that beats yours. If you put 11% of your stack in preflop, you could make a profit by auto pushing any flop. Think it over, and you will understand this.

Now, post flop play is not nearly this simple but with AA your opponent has a 1 in 8 chance of out flopping you with a pocket pair, and I assume (this could be wrong) that a nonpaired hand has a smaller chance of out flopping you.

So, a very basic way to play AA would be to raise 1/8th your stack and then push the flop.

In reality you can make more than this by getting away from your AA when it is beat by a set. This takes experience and practice.

Now, your hand actually makes MOST of it's money from people playing crap like KJ and the flop comes K104 and you get some money in.

In short, don't worry about getting out flopped, bet x5 the BB, and keep betting the pot.

This post really meandered alot but I am just trying to impress on you how preflop -&gt; post flop connect. There's a lot more to be said here, and I hope to say it someday.

[boondockst]

[ QUOTE ]
If you put 11% of your stack in preflop, you could make a profit by auto pushing any flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i know but then last night in the $5K my AA ran into a KQ that flopped KKQ...i actually had the out of a royal flush on the river though....anyway

I understand you win in the longrun betting any amount on any street with AA but i just felt like i'd be a moron to keep calling.....like i had a guy CALL an all-in on the river with a 4flush on the board and he didn't have it...i didn't want to be like that....and ignore the obvious possibilities on the board...

[Kaz The Original]

A) You cannot make a profit long run by betting with AA on any street.
B) Folding AA post flop is fine. That is not at all what I was trying to say.

[boondockst]

i didn't mean for you to take my statement literally....

Other than pot odds, i still can't see pushing the rest on that board.......but ok

[theredpill]

[ QUOTE ]
Why in gods name would you check? Do you hate money? That's the only reasonable explanation...

[/ QUOTE ]

NO, I like money. YOu are the mistaken one. Deception, of course. Look at this.

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=724460
pokenum -h ac ad - kd td - js kc - qc 9c
Holdem Hi: 1086008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Ad 696955 64.18 385603 35.51 3450 0.32 0.643
Kd Td 135914 12.52 941267 86.67 8827 0.81 0.128
Js Kc 88686 8.17 988495 91.02 8827 0.81 0.085
Qc 9c 155626 14.33 926932 85.35 3450 0.32 0.144

Three other players in. These are hands a decent player might play preflop. He hits top pair of kings and has no idea you have a pair of aces. You win big.

I should add that the only way you make money by limping with A A is with good reads on players and the willingness to fold them if you feel you are beat.

[theredpill]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, lets say your opponent had a 1 in 10% chance of flopping a hand that beats yours. If you put 11% of your stack in preflop, you could make a profit by auto pushing any flop. Think it over, and you will understand this.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is if both stacks are equal. It really comes down to who has the smallest chip stack. You would base your preflop raise on this. Because if he hits a hand, you will put him all-in because you have A A and can't drop it normally. If you have the small stack, he hits a hand, he's probably going to have to put you all-in .

[kim2005]

It is very common in micro and don't be feel sad when u lose like this, they will pay u off for long run
Never fold hand on river like this when the pot is that large.

[Wayfare]

This logic is tremendously flawed at small stakes. I hope EVERYONE sees why.

In fact, I'll quote my own freaking 2+2 article:

"Deception in one's play style is a critical aspect of high-stakes and tournament play, but has far diminished value in these low stakes games simply because the average opponent does not think deeply enough about the game to really be deceived. In order for a "deceptive" play to be correct, it must cause the opponent to make a mistake that is more profitable for you than his play is if he had not been deceived.

The classic example of this is checking a set in early position into a pre-flop raiser in order to feign weakness. At low-stakes no-limit, this is almost never the correct play. It is almost always better to simply bet and hope for a raise than to slow play, because you will pot commit the opponent early in the hand and let him blast out any possible draws for you. If you can get a one-pair hand to raise your set, which is the "nuts" on almost all flops (sets will be ahead by the end of almost all hands completed on the flop), then you are both protecting your own hand and getting more money in the pot to prepare for your all-in. You don't have that many streets to get the entire stack in the middle, and at these games slow-playing is almost always a catastrophic mistake. "

[mason55]

Exactly. At low stakes, you think KJ, KT, or Q9 cares if you raised preflop??? If they're willing to go to the felt with top pair-bad kicker when they hit top pair in an unraised pot, they're willing to do it in a raised pot too. Anyone who's willing to go that far with KJ on a K62 board in an unraised pot is willing to call a standard raise when you have AA and they're willing to go to the felt if they hit. The only difference is if they don't hit you get more of their money. Stop readin the high stakes NL forum and trying to apply those strategies because they're worthless at the limits you play at.