marginal hand against a bad player.

[cnfuzzd]

ive seen villian play two hands, and all i know is that he is not playing well.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.66 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.66 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.66 BB
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: 7.66 BB, between Hero and UTG.</font>

thoughts?

peace

john nickle

[SCfuji]

this is just one of those situations. with the A8 i would e-bet the flop call a cap and lead the turn. i just dont see too many hands you beat and you are in a position where you will have to call the rest of the way, which sucks.

i fold or call down... i prefer folding

did he poorly overplay/underplay his hands?

[Sophia]

[cnfuzzd]

6 to one on a flop raise, how many outs to a split, if this bad player even has an eight?

peace

john nickle

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, he's not raising on a draw, and he's telling you he's got an 8 at least. So your kicker is probably insufficient, and you might be drawing almost dead in a small pot. Flop to the raise on the flop, imho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, a bad villain will make this raise with 66 or 77 or 44 here a lot of the time too, and will just make it with overcards if he's bad/aggro. I think this is more likely when the game is shorthanded as well.

John, I think a read really helps here, but the pot is so goddamned small that I think folding is ok. We're looking at 2.5:3.16 effective odds, so you've got to be good (and hold up) here pretty damned often for it to be worth fighting over.

Rob

[Shillx]

Whew at least I wasn't UTG in this hand (I was playing live this time, so I got an allibi). /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I really don't see how calling her down can be your best bet. Ehh fold to the flop raise? Weaksauce?

Brad

[cnfuzzd]

here were my thoughts:

Im going to be making one of two mistakes. Either im folding incorrectly because i do indeed have the best hand, but am scared, or i am calling incorrectly because i am drawing too think to justify a call.

Folding incorrectly seems like the worse of the two, especially given that i am unable to define my opponents hand at all. I am getting an immediate 6:1 on the flop raise, and certainly feel i have enough outs to justify that call, assuming my opponent has a slightly larger ace than i do. However, i am commiting myself to showdown, and that means i am usually risking 2.5 big bets to win 5. If i am behind, this is an obvious mistake, but since the range of hands i put my opponent on is so wide, i think i will end up good here a touch more than fifty percent of the time. Also, i think its important that, at most, being wrong will cost me those 2.5 big bets.

Folding incorrectly however, can cost me 5 big bets, the three already in plus the two bets he may make. Since this player seems terrible, and i am assuming i am good here more than half the time, i felt like the least costly mistake was calling, perhaps incorrectly.

While thinking this, and not nearly so articulately, i also thought about what happens if villian checks the turn, thinking that means i would be winning less. However, a free river card would give my hand some definition, allowing me to play more correctly on fifth street.

If i had any sort of read other than "bad player," i would be able to come to a more informed decision, but this is what i had, and this is what i did.

How does that sound?

peace

john nickle

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
Im going to be making one of two mistakes. Either im folding incorrectly because i do indeed have the best hand, but am scared, or i am calling incorrectly because i am drawing too think to justify a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of them isn't a mistake. I assume "not playing well" means opponent is loose, so he could have limped with many a wide range of 8s against which you have numerous chop outs, and of course could have a worse 8 as well. Maybe A8s-A5s, A8o, K8o, T8o-87o, but I tend to do these too tightly, probably because my hand reading imagination is severely constrained by my tighty preflop stlye. I do adjust a bit I think by calling when its close, out of fear I am being to much of a pussy.

[ QUOTE ]
Folding incorrectly seems like the worse of the two, especially given that i am unable to define my opponents hand at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the above is true your opponent must be aggressive enough to raise a number of hands on the flop, so your flop call is even easier as you may very well be ahead here. This trait is true of a lot of players on the flop, but is kinda rarely followed through on through the river. Few run hard bluffs the whole way yet play tight enough otherwise to mask this tendandcy, i.e. most who can bluff the whole way in a spot like this are too aggro in almost every other postflop spot, so they will, in large part, be easily identifiable.


[ QUOTE ]
i also thought about what happens if villian checks the turn, thinking that means i would be winning less.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he checks the turn you may win a smaller pot on average, but the liklihood your pair of 8s is best goes up significantly. You want that. You want to win the pot. When you are calling a turn bet aginst a better 8 and the improve to a chop on the river, you don't gain anything, as you had less than 50% equity in the turn bet you put into the pot with an inferior hand.

[ QUOTE ]
However, a free river card would give my hand some definition, allowing me to play more correctly on fifth street.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you mean a free river card might give your opponent's hand some definition (such as its more likley opponent has no pair if the river is raggedy; with the opposite being true if the river is an A, or to a lesser degree if the river is a broadway card). Your 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is defined fairly well.

Nice hand. The raggedy river gets closer, especially when they bet the turn and follow thru on the river. Many might halt their semi-bluff on the turn, so it takes a more aggressive type to bet the river, but then agin the pot is laying you 6-1 so its close, and an easy call IMO with your limited read. Make close calls, not folds, aginst an unknown. But make sure they don't stay unkown.

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, he's not raising on a draw, and he's telling you he's got an 8 at least. So your kicker is probably insufficient, and you might be drawing almost dead in a small pot. Flop to the raise on the flop, imho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, a bad villain will make this raise with 66 or 77 or 44 here a lot of the time too

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably raise as villian w/ 44/66/77 also, does that make me bad? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[DMBFan23]

bad aggressive or bad passive?

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
If i had any sort of read other than "bad player," i would be able to come to a more informed decision, but this is what i had, and this is what i did.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand this. If you got a read on him as bad he must have done something to deserve it. And that should at least be a hint if he's bad aggressive, passive, loose or weak/tight. I think there are very few players (if any) who are bad at random. If you've forgot about your read and just remember him as bad I can understand, but otherwise not.

[rmarotti]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there are very few players (if any) who are bad at random.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is untrue. Bad players decide to be passive or agressive at the randomest times. "Bad player" is definitely a legitimate read.

[cnfuzzd]

As for the read, i had seen him play two hands. One, he went a couple of bets to much with middle pair, and was surpized he lost. So, i thought bad and kind of aggressive. The next hand, he called down with A-high, with no aggression anywhere in the hand. So, my read was unknown Bad player. Best i got.

peace

john nickle

[cnfuzzd]

thanks for the comments. Im glad i was somewhat correct.

He didnt stay unknown. He had Q4, and mhig.

peace

john nickle

[freehat]

bet the river and call a raise

[ElSapo]

I three-bet in situations like this if I think he may be getting aggro with overs. A bet on the turn often wins it, and you can probably fold to a three-bet.