your ideas here?

[MattC]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.
Note here: button goes from just calling the first bet to 4 betting it, weird dont you think?

Flop: (20 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, SB calls, CO calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB calls, CO folds.

River: (16.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Button calls $3.16 (All-In), SB folds.

Final Pot: 17.29 BB

do i fear aa here enough to make it a good fold?

[Sophia]

[Special Event]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

AK seems most likely to me, so there's no way in hell I'm slowing down. Bet the house!

[jason_t]

Worst. Fold. Ever. Jam that pot.

[MoreWineII]

I wouldn't fold.

[beta1607]

I would fear QJ more then AA here and I dont think that is a good posibility I am raising every chance and thanking God I am getting action for my hand. Never ever fear Set over Set.

[Chairman Wood]

No............, AK plays the same way, much more likely that your up against AK. Why didn't you bet the flop?

[Chairman Wood]

[ QUOTE ]
Never ever fear Set over Set.

[/ QUOTE ]
No! Please don't say this.

[MattC]

i wanted to see how much betting was gonna happen with that ace on board. yeh i guess i shoulda bet the flop but really it seemed aa more common here then ak, is so unlikely when i alrdy have 2 kings.

the rule never fear set over set is overall true i agree but there are times when fearing set over set isnt so bad, this just seemed like one of those times to me.

[beta1607]

Because you dont think it is true or because it is a cliche?

[edtost]

in my nl days, it was said that if you got involved in a set-over-set and didn't lose/win a huge pot, you played it wrong. is the thinking in limit that different?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
do i fear aa here enough to make it a good fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you? Apparently.

Do I? No. Jesus. Whether the results would've vindicated you or not, I think this is one of the worst folds I've seen in a long time.

Rob

[Chairman Wood]

Because its not true. This situation is obviously not one of them but absolutes like that are just a bad way to think about poker.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
in my nl days, it was said that if you got involved in a set-over-set and didn't lose/win a huge pot, you played it wrong. is the thinking in limit that different?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the exact same thing I've heard about limit.

Rob

[Chairman Wood]

I would say the exact same thing for limit. But you need to be sure someone "TELLS" you they have a set first. i.e. you would lose a lot of money beforehand.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Because its not true. This situation is obviously not one of them but absolutes like that are just a bad way to think about poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this?

If you were to never fear set over set, you wouldn't be making a huge mistake.

That's closer to the truth. Yeah, there are some situations where it's staring you in the face, and you've just got to accept it. But the X% of the time you're wrong is enough such that if you were to worry yourself into folding on the flop in a huge pot, you'd be making MORE of a mistake, in general, by worrying than not worrying.

It's just less words to say don't worry about it.

Rob

[Chairman Wood]

Like I said previously make sure someone "Tells" you they have a set greater than yours. Often times for me this means flop cap, turn cap...., not flop raise and fold. Even when those situations happen I still call down.

[MattC]

ok thanks for your comments guys, in actuality the 4 of diamonds and the king of hearts i switched around, in the real hand the king came on the turn and the 4 of d on the flop. its just the hand brought up this idea to my head, so i decided to change to hand to see what other people would have to say about it.

[Chairman Wood]

Much better

[GrunchCan]

And even if they did tell you they had a set, X% of the time they are lying. Harrington says X &gt;= 10%, and I think that's right.

One difference between Limit &amp; NL is that in NL when someone gets a set, typically someone gets all-in quick. In Limit, you have more opportunities to out-think yourself, and make a colossal mistake, like folding KKK.

[edtost]

in which case you still lose a big pot, and in many cases, top set is no longer the nuts when you start calling down.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Much better

[/ QUOTE ]

In the last 50k hands, I think there have been two, maybe three hands where I "worried" about set over set. And by worried, I mean that I didn't cap every street with a drawless board; in each case, I think I 3-bet the turn, called a cap, and check/called the river.

The whole reason we say "don't worry about set over set" isn't to encourage mindless capping, but instead to get people to realize that if you never folded a set, you wouldn't be making a huge error, and you should never be so worried that you fold a set in a very large pot on the flop/turn.

Rob

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, there are some situations where it's staring you in the face, and you've just got to accept it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even so, it's rarely, if ever, correct to fold a set on the suspicion your opponent has a higher one. Just call down, sure, but rarely fold.

MattC, you simply must invest in this pot. Sometimes, you'll be shown AA, and it'll suck, but other times, you'll see AK or TT and it'll be sweet.

But if you're that worried about it, spike the case king on the turn.

-McGee

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
if you never folded a set, you wouldn't be making a huge error, and you should never be so worried that you fold a set in a very large pot on the flop/turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

folding a set in a big pot is almost always a gigantic error.

[DemonDeac]

Im interested in the results for this one.


and for the record, theres no way in hell im folding this one

[MattC]

never found out for some reason sb folded at the end or something so the button took it without even showing, apparently. sorry guys im dissappointed too.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you never folded a set, you wouldn't be making a huge error, and you should never be so worried that you fold a set in a very large pot on the flop/turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

folding a set in a big pot is almost always a gigantic error.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you just quote me to agree with me? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[edtost]

i felt that emphisis was needed /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Chairman Wood]

I just want to clarify that in almost all cases where I was or would be worried about set over set I would never suggest folding.

[rmarotti]

This sucks.

[bernie]

Ouch.

[ QUOTE ]
Note here: button goes from just calling the first bet to 4 betting it, weird dont you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't know. What type of player is he? Many will do this with big suited drawing hands from the button.

[ QUOTE ]
do i fear aa here enough to make it a good fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You don't know enough about this player to make this fold.

b

[murti]

What did the villains have? Im curious.
I think button had Ax and got angry when u raised, its pretty standard. Button almost out of chips also, he shouldnt be feared.
Do you remember the outcome?
I think folding is the worst thing u can do there.

[Rooster71]

Bad fold. The best thing to do is get as much $$ in the pot as possible. I do see why you might fear AA, but I think it's an unreasonable fear. I have seen that odd sort of play (by the button) at Party 2/4, who knows what they were trying to do (without having some sort of read).

[mikeshoe]

The other day I was playing at a 2/4 BB jackpot and ended up with a pair of 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/heart.gif in the bb. Flop was Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif4/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, I raised the bet, and it was called by three people. Turn was a 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and the river a K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. All of us stayed in till the end, betting and raising, etc. The hand was won with a set of 5s, beating my set of 4s and another set of 2s, which all would have beat the pocket aces of the final caller.

[Freudian]

Seeing monsters used to be my biggest leak. After posting a hand where people pointed out how silly it was I have managed to cure myself from it to a large degree.

There are tonnes of hands I would 3-bet on the flop with. Most of them you dominate with your set. If it's capped on the turn you can start thinking about AA or a flopped straight.

[bisonbison]

Folding this flop is okay if you want to die friendless and alone.

[BeerMoney]

Don't make big lay downs.. The button capped it preflop cause he wanted to take a flop, and figured he might as well cap it cause its fun.. I do it sometimes. It doesn't mean i have AA.. Stop making big laydown's in limit poker. Don't give your opponents so much credit. If he limp reraised under the gun, I can understand your thoughts, but this is a miserable laydown. This game isn't about big laydowns, its about gutsy calls, and razor thin value bets.

[TexasHoldem363]

I should never fold this hand, even with your fear for the AA but never fold. Call and if you see them slow down at the turn, call their bet and on the river re-raise if they bets when you check.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
ok thanks for your comments guys, in actuality the 4 of diamonds and the king of hearts i switched around, in the real hand the king came on the turn and the 4 of d on the flop. its just the hand brought up this idea to my head, so i decided to change to hand to see what other people would have to say about it.

[/ QUOTE ]