Correct percentage of flops seen

[PBaek]

I am not very experienced at O8B but have a question about starting hands.

If you are playing correctly in the average O8B game full ring game, how large a percentage of the flops should you pay to see?

Best regards, Peter.

[Buzz]

Peter - Depends on how your opponents are playing, I think.

If you're just starting, it's at least safer for you to play tighter than your opponents. If you have nine opponents and play the top 100/9 or 11% of the hands dealt to you, you'll usually have as good or better a starting hand as anyone at the table. But I don't think you have to play that tightly, even as a beginner.

I suggest as a beginner maybe playing the top 15% of the hands dealt to you when not posting the big blind. (Playing the big blind is a different story, as is playing the small blind). That amounts to about one hand out of seven, or roughly one hand per round when you're not posting a blind.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Iceman]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not very experienced at O8B but have a question about starting hands.

If you are playing correctly in the average O8B game full ring game, how large a percentage of the flops should you pay to see?

Best regards, Peter.

[/ QUOTE ]

15%.

[PBaek]

Thanks a lot!

You seem to agree on about 15% and that sounds fair.

Now I have another question /images/graemlins/wink.gif

When I see games where there are consitantly 4 or more players seeing each flop - I can assume this is a good game (loose game) or is this not nessecarily so?

Thanks again, Peter.

[chaos]

I play between 15% and 20% outside of the blinds. This is about 3 hands every two times around.

Mike Cappelletti in his latest book recommends 30% outside the blinds.

Ray Zee recommends playing tighter than everyone else. If your game is a typical loose game 5 or more players are seeing the flop. That is the blinds plus 3 of the 8 players not in the blinds. That comes out to 37.5% of the players not in the blinds.

I tend to do better playing tighter preflop. Those small bets saved not playing marginal hands add up.

[Iceman]

[ QUOTE ]
When I see games where there are consitantly 4 or more players seeing each flop - I can assume this is a good game (loose game) or is this not nessecarily so?

[/ QUOTE ]

The best games have 6 or more players seeing the flop on most hands. Games like this are common in low-limit B&M Omaha-8, but are very rare in online games 3-6 and higher. Win rates as high as 2.5 BB/hr are possible in this type of game.

When 4-5 players see a typical flop, that means you're in a game where most of the players basically understand hand selection, and most of the hands that are played will be on the stronger side (if they don't have top 15%, they will usually have top 25% rather than random garbage).

A game where only 2-3 people usually see the flop is probably not worth playing.

Another important factor is the amount of preflop raising. When deciding which table to play, a high average pot size does not always indicate a good game. A game where 4-5 players usually see the flop but most hands are reraised or capped preflop will have a very high average pot size, but will be very tricky for an inexperienced player to beat. Party's 3-6 and 5-10 games are often like that.

[PBaek]

Thanks for the insights /images/graemlins/smile.gif

One last qustion...

You give an estimate for average BB per hour you can win in very good games. Do you have an estimate of obtainable win rate at PLO8B?

Also you mention Partys 3/6 games. Are these tough?

Thanks again, Peter.

[Iceman]

[ QUOTE ]
You give an estimate for average BB per hour you can win in very good games. Do you have an estimate of obtainable win rate at PLO8B?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's hard to pin down any meaningful average in PLO8B since even more than in other pot-limit games it really depends on your opponents. In a tough game, even the best players can only make a small profit. By contrast, loose callers or wild raisers are almost certain to lose their entire stacks quickly, and if you have even one or two of them in a game you are almost guaranteed to have a large advantage.

[ QUOTE ]
Also you mention Partys 3/6 games. Are these tough?

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually they are difficult - not unbeatable, but difficult. In loose B&M games, you can win by hand selection alone - that won't work in Party 3-6. Party 3-6 tends to be very aggressive preflop and postflop, and most players basically know what they are doing. This requires very cautious play preflop and postflop - limping in with a marginal hand is dangerous when you are likely be raised and reraised, and on the flop the kind of calls that might be okay for one bet definitely won't be for two or three - this makes position very important, and it's also important to get a read on your opponents (e.g. who is likely to raise preflop, who plays a lot of hands versus who only plays premium hands). You also get a few heads-up flops, which play very differently than hands where many players take the flop, and you have to know how to handle them.

[FeliciaLee]

In a typical, LL passive game, I usually see 10-15% outside of the blinds. I'm very tight though /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I play ABC rote O8 online whereas sometimes I can make a few more moves live. There are a couple of players I know who will fold to my bluffs saying things like, "I know she only plays A2xx, so she must have just made her wheel..."

I play many, many more hands when it gets shorthanded, and I call down more rivers, playing it more like LHE vs. O8.

Online, I usually look for preflop percentages 60% or greater.

So it looks like I'm pretty much in line with the rest of the responders, and we are all Zee-clones, lol.

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif