Another bad 15/30 play

[DiceyPlay]

The game has been going for about 4 hours. There are a couple of weak players, a couple of loose aggressive types, and the rest are average. At one point in an earlier hand I hear the guy in seat 4 (the villain in this hand) say to the guy in seat 5, "I know you don't have a flush because you didn't raise the flop". They chopped that hand.

I have 87o in the CO. There are 4 calls to me and I call. The button and SB fold and the BB checks. 6 to the flop.

Flop is Js7c8s. BB bets, seat 4 calls. I decide to wait and see what the turn brings before I raise. I do this because ....... I don't know why I did that. I don't have a good reason now /images/graemlins/frown.gif. I just call.

The turn is an off-suit 6 (4.5 big bets). BB bets and now seat 4 raises. So there's 7.5 big bets and it's 2 big bets to me. I think for a while and fold. BB calls and the river is an off-suit 2. Check, check and seat 4 takes it with QJ. DANG-NAMMIT!

In retrospect when I was thinking for while I should have realized that if seat four had flopped a straight or 2-pair he would have surely raised the flop to try and protect against the flush or an inside straight draw. Afterall, he did demonstrate by his earlier comments that he's a thinking player. But at the same time he is putting a lot of pressure on me on the turn - I have to win better then 20% of the time to make a call correct and I don't know that the big blind won't re-raise once I call.

Any advice on these situations would be helpful.

Thanks,

-DP

[sthief09]

I would've mucked that preflop, but I don't think limping is a crime.

I would've 3-bet the turn.

[DcifrThs]

first comment is that you play too loose.

you're considering playing JTs for 3 or 4 bets with 3 or 4 people...thats nuts...so not worth it.

2nd 87OFFSUIT is a fold. period. you no longer have flush outs to improve. its a big advantage. 87s you should call, 87o you should fold.

on the flop you should raise. likely you're against either a jack or a draw. look at every card that can come that makes you not want to raise. any spade, any 9, any ten. in this case any queen (but only results oriented)...basically thats 15 cards right there, plus any 6 can't make you TOO happy although its better than a 9 or ten.

either way you should raise this flop, you're hand is quite vulnerable and you need to take control now with a likely best hand.

i think its probably best, for now, that you move down in limits and work on your preflop and flop play. those are crucial before considering the turn and river (where the most money is MADE- rather than where most money is lost...i.e. preflop and the flop.)

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I would've mucked that preflop, but I don't think limping is a crime.

I would've 3-bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you're right. its closer than i let on in my post, but i'd still fold it 100% of the time. and i also forgot to mention the turn play which i agree is a 3 bet.

-Barron

[DeeJ]

I'm raising the flop. This flop is dangerously coordinated and I don't want no trouble. Nothing happenin' here folks. Move along now.

Raise it up - fold your hands people ...

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]


2nd 87OFFSUIT is a fold. period. you no longer have flush outs to improve. its a big advantage. 87s you should call, 87o you should fold.



[/ QUOTE ]


In the last month or so, I've been doing well when I'm on the button with 78-o, 89-o, and 910-o when I have five or more limpers ahead of me (especially when I'm certain that the SB is most likely to complete and neither SB or BB will raise from their blinds).

VERY specific situation that comes up enough times to include those marginal holdings under those extreme circumstances where you have a 8-, 9-, or 10-way pot and you're on the button.

In this situation, though, agreed, I'd fold preflop -- EVEN if I was positive the button was folding.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[DcifrThs]

agreed. and i also stated that its closer than i let on in my post...7 8 or 9 way its probably worth considering taking a flop. good odds great position, i cant see what else i could ask for...

-Barron

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would've mucked that preflop, but I don't think limping is a crime.

I would've 3-bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


i think you're right. its closer than i let on in my post, but i'd still fold it 100% of the time. and i also forgot to mention the turn play which i agree is a 3 bet.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]
This part I agree with ... you checked the flop so you could raise the turn and just because you have a raise in front of you doesn't mean he savagely spiked a set OR that he was in there for his gutshot -- 3-bet ahoy!

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[DeeJ]

i know pretty much nothing but with 4 weak loser limps on the button then i call 87o also. lots to win when you hit, easy to get away from with overcards.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
i know pretty much nothing but with 4 weak loser limps on the button then i call 87o also. lots to win when you hit, easy to get away from with overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess this is yet another instance in which i am entirely too tight...i dont call 87o after 4 players unlesss they are just so predictable and bad in which case i'll play lots of hands...

-Barron

[DiceyPlay]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I'm surprised that most of you don't think calling is +ev with 4 limpers already in. I should have mentioned that I thought the button was going to fold. Is 6 to 1 with 87o that bad pre-flop when you're on the button? It's easy to get away from if you miss and it should pay off when you hit (unless you play it like I did).

Less limpers and I would have folded - no doubt.

Thanks again.

-DP

[gamblore99]

I don't like any of it. I guess calling the flop is ok if you are gonna raise the turn, but the turn 3bet seems clear, or at least a call. Im also with the preflop fold.

[Vince Lepore]

Pick up the latest copy of Card player. Read Basrry Tanenbaum's article on raise and fold situations. You'll find that you were right to think as you did. However,when holding two pair one shoud give the situation a bit more consideration before releasing.

Vince

[TStoneMBD]

i like the call on the flop line. 3bet the turn and river is a check/bet depending upon the player. too many draws out there and you dont want BB staying in with his 1pair against your vulnerable 2pair.

[Bill C]

Playing a hand like 8-7o in LP isn't all bad as a change-up (though I agree with others that it's generally a hand to fold P/F). But if you're going to play it at all, you have to go for it a little. For one thing, with only limpers P/F and the Button making obvious moves to fold, you could have thought about a bluff-raise here. I'm not saying you should have. But you could have.

With this flop you have a pretty good hand, maybe best right now, with bottom two. When you decided to play these, I am sure you were thinking about a str8 as your target, but SURPRISE! Two pair. (If your hand wasn't best right now, you could have been thinking about a semi-bluff raise.) I feel like by not raising here, you let it get away from you.

Maybe BB has a Jack, seat 4 prolly doesn't have a lot. Your hand is vulnerable, and this is the spot for a raise. You will be representing a "stronger hand," like maybe a better Jack like AJo or KJo, and will perhaps get the other two to check to you on the turn, or maybe even a fold. A win right here on your raise is not impossible to imagine. You have 4 cards to a boat and two rounds to get one of them. If it doesn't fall on the turn you can check thru and see the river.

I have no comment on the turn, since it might have been a lot different had you raised on the flop.

Just my $.02 worth.
bill