15/30

[DiceyPlay]

I recently moved up to this level and I'm not yet comfortable. In fact, I'm losing. May be I should move back down??

Here's a hand I played where I don't know if I played it right due to the results.

I have JdTd on the button. It's only the fourth or fifth hand at this new table. My opponents seem a little bit loose and a lot a bit aggressive. UTG calls, then it's folded to CO-2, who raises, CO-1 re-raises, CO folds, and it's on me. I fold???. SB calls, BB folds and everyone else calls.

Flop comes 89K rainbow. There's one bet somewhere and everyone calls. Turn is Q putting two spades on the board. One bet and everyone calls. River is an off-suit 7. It's checked around.

How bad was my fold -- or was it good? I tend to think I should have capped. But that's pretty bold for JTs. I can't help but look back on it in a results oriented way ... so my judgement just isn't clear.

What do you guys think?

Thanks,

-DP

[oscark]

Easiest of folds.

[Entity]

I think if you're asking this question, you're right: you aren't quite ready for 15/30 yet.

3-bet to you and you're wondering if you should cap with JTs? Would you be wondering this were the flop AAK?

Rob

[DiceyPlay]

I think a flop of AAK is VERY UNLIKELY when it's raised and re-raised pre-flop. And if I flop a hand, think about what that does for my image. I'm a VERY TIGHT player - do you think my opponents will think I'm tight after I played that hand?

I'm on the button, it's only 3 small bets, JTs is a good deceptive hand. But calling might be weak. If I cap with gusto I may get to the turn for free.

Hense, I ask my question.

Good point. If the flop were AAK, I wouldn't have written this post. But that doesn't mean you should always toss JTs on the button if it's 3-bet to you, does it?

[oscark]

You convinced me. Play it and stay in the 15.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a VERY TIGHT player -

[/ QUOTE ]
If you are considering playing JTs when it is three bet in front of you and are limping with 87o (other thread) when you don't even have the button, you are most certainly not a "VERY TIGHT player". I'm not even saying those hands were wrong to play, just that anyone who plays those kinds of hands isn't close to what I would call very tight.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
But that doesn't mean you should always toss JTs on the button if it's 3-bet to you, does it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your whole "AAK" comment missed the point. I was just trying to show that you may have been the slightest bit results-oriented in asking the question. Regardless, this is a fold. If the players are decent (not raising light), I'm folding everything but QQ-AA and AKs, maybe AKo here.

If you tossed JTs everytime it was 3-bet to you on the Button, you wouldn't be making a large error at all.

JTs thrives on implied odds, dude. When it's 3-bets to you, you aren't getting those odds. JTs is an easy fold for 3 cold, any day, any time. And I love playing JTs, for the record.

Rob

[stoxtrader]

I think you will fit in perfectly at the 15 game.

[DiceyPlay]

I'm struggling to make sense of a difficult game here. I don't appreciate anyone who is treating this arena as their pesonal playground.

One can make a case for all kinds of weird plays. What is right is entirely situational.

F you guys who are here just to have fun at the expense of others.

[esspo]

Actually I decided to draft the response that I was going to make.

Entity was not attacking you, although some of the other posters probably were. I think he was making the point that the whole basis for your questions was that you would have made the nuts and won a nice pot THIS HAND, which is not the right way to work the problem. You have to ask yourself whether calling 3-bets cold or capping, god forbid, is correct every time and the answer to that question is a clear no imo.

Look at it this way, whenever you don't have the best hand you are drawing and I gaurantee you that regardless of how crazy your opponnents are, when you are faced with 3 bets cold pre-flop JT is NOT the best hand. From that basis we can ask "what are we drawing to" with JT suited and "how much will it cost us to get there". The most likely hand you will make is a pair of Js or Ts, which more often than not won't even be top pair. However, now that the pot is so huge you will be forced to call bets and raises to try and spike two pair or trips. Even if you hit a decent 4 flush or OESD on the flop you are still over 2-1 against making your hand by the river and your flush draw won't even be to the nuts. To make matters worse, all that pre-flop raising means you are most likely going to pay through the nose to chase, especially if your OESD includes a couple of facecards on the board. Take a look at the odds tables in Doyle Brunson's SuperSystem to see what your odds of making a straight are by the river with JT. They aren't good. And all this doesn't include the truly massive number of times you waste 3 or, gulp, 4 bets pre-flop when you check fold a flop that misses you completely. Add it all up and calling with JT suited in that spot is -EV.

Next hand.

[esspo]

...

[DiceyPlay]

Thank you for your reply. I didn't think Entity was attacking me. I appreciate his comments and the comments of others. Those who posted destructive content know who they are. I should be used to it or just not let it bother me, but it does and I lash out. Oh well ... some things never change. Stoxtrader surprised me ... he usually posts constructive stuff.

Anyway, as I stated I'm new to this level. The average competition is playing at a level that is better then I've become accustomed to. There's much talk about selective aggression. And also serving multiple purposes with the same action. In this case it would have been advertising and creating a false image. I really am a tight player. But this is a new level for me and I think I need to do something to throw off my opponents - something other then raise with the best of it and fold everything else. May be this was not the place to make such a wild play. I was thinking that capping would be superior to calling. But it appears the concensus is that folding is best (which is what I did by the way). But seeing the results, I coudln't help but wonder if this might have been the place to play a less then monster hand in a monster way.

Thank you for your reply. It made sense and helped a lot.

-DP

[KidNapster]

Once when I had 23s I folded but I woulda flopped a straight flush!

[Vince Lepore]

Have you read Holdem for Advanced Players? If not, read it! In poker we do things for a reason. The reason is always the EV of the situation. It is extremely difficult to analyze situations accurately to determine the EV. Anyone that tells you that folding, calling or raising in the situation that you describe is best is lying to both of you.

What they can tell you is that JTs does not normally stand to produce a +EV against a raise and reraise. In almost all cases you will find youself with a worse hand than both raisers. Against solid players your hand will always be behind in a 3 bet situation (unless I do the three betting).
You will not make a hand often enough to take JT against a reasonable raiser and reraiser to make it a profitible play. In HPFAP, Sklansky and Malmuth describe reasonable raising starting hands. You should be able to tell from thier recommendation how a JT will fair in this and similar situations.

Vince

[TStoneMBD]

easy fold. the fact that you posted what came out on the flop, which is entirely irrelevant makes me think you arent ready to play this high.

[DiceyPlay]

Thanks,

Once when I held Qh8h and folded I would have flopped a straight flush. I've folded it every time since.

When you make a straight, you're shown a better straight too often -- very costly.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I played it right due to the results.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I tend to think I should have capped. (with JTs)

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
May be I should move back down??

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. I agree. Not trying to be a jerk... but some of the things I am reading in this thread are not good at all.

[amulet]

your fold was 100% corrrect.

[freehat]

terrible fold, jtsuited is a monster in raised pots and you have the button