30-60 hand. I think I botched this.

[Jon K.]

very good, very loose-passive 30-60 game.

MP open limps, LP limps, button(loose but I haven't seen him raise a single hand yet, have played maybe 60-80 hands with him total. so far he's been passive after the flop as well) raises, I'm in the BB and call w/ 55 as do both limpers.

flop 2 5 7r.

I lead, limpers both fold, button raises, I 3bet, he 4bets (no cap) and I call.

turn A I check raise, he 3bets.

At this point I can only think to put him on AA. Would he cap the flop with just overcards? I can't imagine him 3 betting here with KK or QQ after the ace hits. So I call.

River is a J and I check-call.

Anyone have a better line to take here? Am I putting too much weight into the very-passive read I have on him after so few hands?

[Robk]

i would have bet the turn. his hand is very likely to be a pair kings or smaller, and he sounds like the type to check behind on this card if that is in fact what he has.

i think folding your hand on the turn would be giving too much weight to the information that you have. but i think slowing down is certainly appropriate.

[elysium]

hi jon

it's usually better to betout on the turn in this spot, jon. of course, everything is fine up to the point of the turn.

first, look at the flop. when you're going back and forth like that a little something happens at the point of the call. your opponent will think that you think that he thinks that the strength of your hand is hidden somewhat, and will check those times that he is in first, and reraise the check-raise those times that you act first. this situation usually comes up when you're in last position. this hand posted by you is, nevertheless, one of these type hands. your opponent knew that you were going to check-raise and is reraising with something like AA.

the way to solve this situation is more popular those times that it's a first position issue. on the turn, from first position, you only check-raise with the nuts, and if he raises, you reraise. without the nuts, you want to get in the 3-bet. that's what is causing you to feel a little something. i get that too. i can feel error. i get a little something, too. that's a reaction you're having jon. you're having a reaction because you were wrong.

when your opponent thinks that you think that he thinks that the strength of your hand is hidden, and you are acting first on the expensive round, betout and put in the 3-bet. the first one to call the 3-bet is trailing. why is that important? well, look what happened. when you got hit with the 3-bet, you called thinking that you were calling with the best hand. had you put in the 3-bet, he would have called thinking that he was beat. of course, had you then been 4-bet by him, you would call thinking that he has the lead, and knowing what to do on the river. that's fine. but what you don't want is to call thinking that you might have the lead. why? because then you won't know what to do on the river. that's where this hand goes wrong, but it's o.k. jon because you were wrong and had a bad reaction. i get that too sometimes.

never let your opponent 3-bet you in this situation; you must do the 3-betting.

[esspo]

[ QUOTE ]
your opponent will think that you think that he thinks that the strength of your hand is hidden somewhat

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this supposition is just plaing wrong 95% of the time. Very few players think on that level.

[ QUOTE ]
never let your opponent 3-bet you in this situation; you must do the 3-betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I do think there is deep truth and meaning in the final statement (as well as the rest of the post).

[na4bart]

I agree elysuim's post was execellent. And yes most players do not think at this level, but many do feel at this level as opposed to having a conscience thought, so I think elysium's post is valid.

[TStoneMBD]

elysium, you have been told numerous times that not many players think on this level. however, your post is very insightful and has alot of wisdom when approaching skilled players.

in this hand i think leading the turn is a better play, as villain is representing an overpair and may check through. after checkraising however, i think calling down is appropriate. youve represented something much stronger than 1 pair, and only an ignorant would continue pounding with something less.