Value of state universities: overrated

[pshreck]

I went to Lehigh University (private, waspy, top 40 university) for 5 semesters, then decided to leave because basically I hated everyone there.

I worked as an accountant with United Technologies for 9 months, before officially transfering to UConn. I took only 9 credits and played poker full time this past semester. Compared to what I am paying for Uconn now (roughly 5k) vs what my parents paid for Lehigh (roughly 31K), you would assume I'm getting a better value.

Well it's not true. Only from personal experience and talking to many peers, I see that state schools in general suck. I know probably around 35 kids that went to either UConn or UMass, and generally they hated it. Their job offers are pathetic (20k-30k a year) with a business degree, which is less than what I made without one. Many had no offers whatsoever. This... in best year in the past decade for college grads. My friends at Notre Dame, Brown, Loyola, Vassar, and Tulane all have jobs lined up, and seem to have loved their college experience.

The teachers in general are less educated/less prepared to teach. My advisor personally goes out of his way to make sure our advising sessions are as un helpful as possible. This is my second advisor in 2 semesters, as my last advisor cut short a 15 minute meeting in which I had to drive 25 miles to come to (I live off campus). My new advisor had this sentence roughly 20 seconds into our first conversation .....

"There is no way I can assist you with any of these things".

Sorry for the rant... but there are reasons that private institutions cost more, and it's not because they are ripping you off. I feel like Im getting ripped off by this dump of a school.

Edit:

This is not directed at those of you who went to Michigan State, Penn State, etc, nor any of should you take it personally. Just a rant.

[daryn]

maybe that is true for business. i found the physics dept. at umass to be full of very competent and brilliant professors. but that's physics for you. not like you are gonna sneak in and become a professor.

[jakethebake]

Too small a sample size.

[pshreck]

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Too small a sample size.

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I won't deny that at all. From the perspective of the laws of economics, I do have a ton of support for the argument, though.

[mmbt0ne]

Georgia Institute of Technology
Public School
Top 10 in almost all engieering disciplines among ALL schools.

I'd throw some other ones out, Michigan-Ann Arbor, Virginia, Berkeley, Wisconsin-Madison, UIC, etc. but I think you get the point. Rumor has it that Virginia will move to a private school though, since they get almost no funding from the state anyway.

[wacki]

Same goes with IU's and Purdue's biology/chemistry department. The professors there are very good. Their computer science professors are good too but their programs are designed to make you fail which is bad practice IMO. My brother just graduated from ND and he loved it there. Everyone I know that has graduated from Kelley school of business (that is competent) has recieved very good job offers. Makes me jealous because they drank their way through college and start out near 100K. Not going to college would be stupid IMO, you miss out on so much.

[jakethebake]

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Too small a sample size.

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I won't deny that at all. From the perspective of the laws of economics, I do have a ton of support for the argument, though.

[/ QUOTE ]
No you don't have a "ton" of support. I could name way more than 35 people that went to state schools and didn't hate them. I could also name people from more than 2 schools. Maybe what you meant was UMass & UConn suck. Or even that specific sdepartments there suck.

[cardcounter0]

I think the problem is one of size rather than state/private.

You are going to a large University, expecting an advisor to hold your hand isn't going to happen.

I went to a very small State University, my advisor knew me and did everything he could to help.

Small vs Large -- individual attention vs diploma mill with a name.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]


The teachers in general are less educated/less prepared to teach.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is totally untrue.

I bet if you look at the faculty at UMass and compare it to many of the private schools in state, you will find they are probably more educated. Any prof I had at UMass in math and engineering was from an Ivy league MIT, or CalTech. Now, some of them were total AHOLES and didn't give a damn about undergrad classes, but they were smart nevertheless.

My friends who graduated in business from UMass all went on to work for big 6 accounting firms. Bottom line about state schools is that you get what you put into it.

[pshreck]

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Too small a sample size.

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I won't deny that at all. From the perspective of the laws of economics, I do have a ton of support for the argument, though.

[/ QUOTE ]
No you don't have a "ton" of support. I could name way more than 35 people that went to state schools and didn't hate them. I could also name people from more than 2 schools. Maybe what you meant was UMass & UConn suck. Or even that specific sdepartments there suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said from a perspective of the laws of economics. Then you argued a different point altogether...

[daryn]

yeah, all my physics profs got their phd's at harvard, MIT, etc.

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, all my physics profs got their phd's at harvard, MIT, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is unfair... from what I know about Umass's physics department, it's supposed to be top-notch.

Lot's of state schools have very good departments. I think Uconn's is nursing....

I'm not saying you cant get a great education from state schools, because I know that you can. I am simply saying that there are reasons for the huge price difference, and I have observed some of them... that's all.

[Cubswin]

I am simply saying that there are reasons for the huge price difference, and I have observed some of them... that's all.

The reason there is a price difference is because the tax-payer foots the bill for public schools...

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
I said from a perspective of the laws of economics. Then you argued a different point altogether...

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing in your original post or any of the others gives a "ton of support" for anything. And to which which "laws of economics" are you referring?

[BeerMoney]

Most of the reason for the huge price difference is that the state kicks in part of the tuition. This is why it is cheaper to go in state than out of state. The other is that the profs are expected to get grant money. This takes away from some of their teaching, and makes them focus more on graduate students who can help them with their research, rather than the undergrads.

I think it would be safe to assume that at private schools, class sizes are smaller, and profs are monitored more for their teaching, and student complaints about poor teaching are taken more seriously.

I think the fact that a lot of profs may be OverQualified at a school like UMass makes it boring when they are teaching a class like calc. 1 or something.

[billyjex]

State schools still provide a great service and education to those who can't afford 31k a year.

[jakethebake]

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The reason there is a price difference is because the tax-payer foots the bill for public schools...

[/ QUOTE ]
In some cases, but some state schools also have very large endowments that did not comke from public money. Also, at some private schools the "list price" is expensive, but almost everyone there is on scholarship so they actually pay almost nothing.

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]
I am simply saying that there are reasons for the huge price difference, and I have observed some of them... that's all.

The reason there is a price difference is because the tax-payer foots the bill for public schools...

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that is why it is cheaper. The fact is though, if public schools had the same value as private schools, they would start to cost the same. Either through people refusing to attend private schools, or states raising tuition due to hugely increased demand.

Jake, this touches on the laws of economics. I am saying that from that standpoint, there clearly is less value in a public institution. While it some cases your degree may be just as 'strong', your college 'experience' may not have been matched, etc..

[Cubswin]

, but some state schools also have very large endowments that did not comke from public money.

private schools dont receive endowments?

[pshreck]

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State schools still provide a great service and education to those who can't afford 31k a year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100x over.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
I am simply saying that there are reasons for the huge price difference, and I have observed some of them... that's all.

The reason there is a price difference is because the tax-payer foots the bill for public schools...

[/ QUOTE ]

DING DING DING!

Cubswin is right. I sat in on an education committee hearing here in the Legislature yesterday, and listened to one of the Presidents of a private college in Washington talk about how great a deal for taxpayers private colleges are, since they aren't funded by the state at all. I thought that was funny, since of course it's the student who picks up the tab.

[sfer]

Some state schools suck. Some private schools suck. A few schools, public or private, are very good. Some students at state schools are dumb...

This shouldn't be news to anyone.

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am simply saying that there are reasons for the huge price difference, and I have observed some of them... that's all.

The reason there is a price difference is because the tax-payer foots the bill for public schools...

[/ QUOTE ]

DING DING DING!

Cubswin is right. I sat in on an education committee hearing here in the Legislature yesterday, and listened to one of the Presidents of a private college in Washington talk about how great a deal for taxpayers private colleges are, since they aren't funded by the state at all. I thought that was funny, since of course it's the student who picks up the tab.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont understand... is he advocating ending state funded schools?

You do realize everyone pays the taxes that run UConn or Penn State or whatever... regardless if they or their children go there.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact is though, if public schools had the same value as private schools, they would start to cost the same

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not true.

I'll let others elaborate. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pshreck]

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The fact is though, if public schools had the same value as private schools, they would start to cost the same

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not true.

I'll let others elaborate. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

We can get into semantics about the definition of value, but it is absolutely true.

I admit that lots of private schools have value purely in their name. Brown has been a weaker top school for 20 years, but it is an Ivy League still, and has tons of value on it's name alone.

So If Umass and Brown were on the same level in absolutely every category, Brown could still charge a ton more, purely on their namesake.

I feel like an essay could be written on this. By someone else.

[sfer]

You don't see price discrimination between private colleges and universities, so you shouldn't expect to see it between public/non-public schools.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
I know that is why it is cheaper. The fact is though, if public schools had the same value as private schools, they would start to cost the same. Either through people refusing to attend private schools, or states raising tuition due to hugely increased demand.

Jake, this touches on the laws of economics. I am saying that from that standpoint, there clearly is less value in a public institution. While it some cases your degree may be just as 'strong', your college 'experience' may not have been matched, etc..

[/ QUOTE ]
I see what you're driving at. But what you're missing is that there would be general outcry if public institutions tried to charge a market rate. Also, there are limits as to how many people get get into the state school. A number of schools have actually had to reduce the number of students because they just couldn't handle the ones they were admitting.

But like I said before, trying to generalize the "value" of the education by private vs. public is useless.

[pshreck]

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You don't see price discrimination between private colleges and universities, so you shouldn't expect to see it between public/non-public schools.

[/ QUOTE ]

Price discrimination has nothing to do with my statements. I'm not talking about different prices for different individuals for the same school...

And it most certainly does happen, through financial aid and scholarships anyways. But I'm really not even getting into that.

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]

But like I said before, trying to generalize the "value" of the education by private vs. public is useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say it's useless. Hard to do, but not useless.

[sfer]

My bad, I meant price differences, as in tuition doesn't correlate well with educational quality between private schools.

[Number4]

[ QUOTE ]
Some state schools suck. Some private schools suck. A few schools, public or private, are very good. Some students at state schools are dumb...

This shouldn't be news to anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that the distinction between public and private is being overblown. I go to a private law school, and pay more - but that doesn't mean anything at all. You can pay a lot of money for a bad teacher, just like you can for a good one.

I think it is more school specific, rather than public/private.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]

We can get into semantics about the definition of value, but it is absolutely true.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't talking about the value bit.
The part about "cost" is another story...

I don't really feel like getting into it though.
That's why I said, "I'll let others elaborate."
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pshreck]

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My bad, I meant price differences.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also untrue... private schools range from 10k to 35k in tuition, and no they aren't all bunched close together either.

State schools also range from around 1,500 to 10k or so (just considering in-state). Out of state tuitions for state schools vary much more.

[mmbt0ne]

I wouldn't go to any other school in the country. I have everything I could want here. City life, DI athletics, incredible teachers, well-respected name, and on and on. Maybe you're just upset because you chose to settle for a secondary option rather than going for what you wanted. Find a school you like, a major you like, and do it. Private, public, international, none of that matters unless you're where you want to be.

[pshreck]

When you guys edit your posts, can you please have them 'marked as edited'. It's annoying having intelligent discourse when posts are being edited and I have to reread them all to find this out.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
When you guys edit your posts, can you please have them 'marked as edited'. It's annoying having intelligent discourse when posts are being edited and I have to reread them all to find this out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I always mark them as edited if I have added anything significant. Usually I'm not editing that much though. Just a word or two here and there.

I'm pretty sure the response you are most likely to receive here is:

"No."

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't go to any other school in the country. I have everything I could want here. City life, DI athletics, incredible teachers, well-respected name, and on and on. Maybe you're just upset because you chose to settle for a secondary option rather than going for what you wanted. Find a school you like, a major you like, and do it. Private, public, international, none of that matters unless you're where you want to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im actually trying to talk seriously about differences between public and private school values, and just because your love your school doesn't mean they don't exist.

And yes I'll admit, I'm annoyed that I am getting my degree at a school that I consider to be 'not as good', despite the fact that I am saving money and paying my own way.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand... is he advocating ending state funded schools?

You do realize everyone pays the taxes that run UConn or Penn State or whatever... regardless if they or their children go there.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he wasn't saying that. He was trying to show that private school students are a boon to the local economy and community through their spending and eventual move into the workforce, so it's a good deal for taxpayers since they don't subsidize their schooling.

And yes, I understand that all taxpayers are subsidizing the educations of those in state schools. They did so for me when I attended a state school.

Frankly I think state schools should probably get less state funding, although that gets into an education discussion that will truly derail this thread.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't go to any other school in the country. I have everything I could want here. City life, DI athletics, incredible teachers, well-respected name, and on and on. Maybe you're just upset because you chose to settle for a secondary option rather than going for what you wanted. Find a school you like, a major you like, and do it. Private, public, international, none of that matters unless you're where you want to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quoted for truth.. Although I wouldn't really call Ga Tech D1 athletics /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sfer]

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I admit that lots of private schools have value purely in their name. Brown has been a weaker top school for 20 years, but it is an Ivy League still, and has tons of value on it's name alone

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Also untrue... private schools range from 10k to 35k in tuition, and no they aren't all bunched close together either.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to US News, Brown costs ~39K/year. Harvard costs ~39K/year. Seton Hall costs ~31K/year. American University costs ~$36K/year. Looks pretty bunched together. And, from this it looks like the "value" of a state school, assuming you get an education comparable to a school like Seton Hall or American and pay between 5K-15K is substantially greater.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Quoted for truth.. Although I wouldn't really call Ga Tech D1 athletics /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a really good picture for this somewhere, but I can't find it. Let me try to recreate it.

The title was "Why we can't beat Georgia."

http://www.f2f2s.com/images/reggie.JPG

[Corey]

One thing overlooked so far is the image of private schools on different sides of the country.

Looking at California, the top public schools all offer outstanding education, though much of its notoriety comes from graduate programs. Excluding Stanford and Cal Tech, it is much tougher to get into a top 3 University of California school--Berkeley, LA, and San Diego--than any other private school as an undergrad.

Furthermore, looking at a list of private schools in California you will notice a distinct lack of "top quality" institutions. After recognizing Stanford and Cal Tech, you're left with the Pomona-Pitzer-Claremont group of five colleges, USC, Harvey Mudd, and after that you run thin. In addition, those schools are hit-and-miss with quality programs.

After graduation from UCSD, I interviewed with companies as far away as DC and all recognized the value of education at a UC. Granted, those in California seemed to grasp a UC Degree better, but those couple of east coast interviewers I talked with had no qualms about the quality of my education and they in fact were impressed that I worked regularly with someone who has an inside track on a future Nobel Prize in Economics.

Finally, it seems the University of California Office of the President has no trouble pushing tuition rates closer and closer to the market price /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[Richard Tanner]

I'm in Kelley right now, and I'd say it's pretty good. I got in as a direct admit so I guess I have a private advisor and things that normal admits wouldn't get, but I still think their service is very good.

Cody