Big draw heads up vs. preflop raiser.

[TripleH68]

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 is tight preflop and willing to make plays post. What is your action on the turn and river?

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero ?

[chief444]

I can see an argument for 3-betting if you feel he would often raise the turn with overcards but also often fold to a 3-bet.

Personally though I'd probably just call the turn and check/fold the river unimproved, check/call any J or Q, and check/raise any straight or flush.

[cnfuzzd]

Am i weak in wanting a preflop fold here?

Without that, i would probably checkraise the flop, lead the turn if i wanst three bet, and go from there on the river.

peace

john nickle

[sean c]

I'm with cnfuzzd fold pre flop.

[bennyk]

I think it's better to raise the flop and check-call the turn if he 3-bets you.

If he calls the flop, you can lead the turn, if not, check-call.

I don't get why hero led the turn after check-calling the flop. It seems like we're asking to be raised.

bk

[rmarotti]

Wow, this seems really weak-tight. Is this because of the pot size? /edit and the shorthanded-ness? I'm interested in why this is your line.

[Vee Quiva]

You fold preflop because there are only 3.5 small bets in the pot when it gets to you. QJ suited only plays well in larger fields when you can draw to the straight or flush with good odds. Otherwise when you hit your Jack or Queen there is too much danger of being outkicked or an overcard pairing up your opponent.

What I don't understand is leading out on the turn? Did you think he might be bluffing and just have overcards?

[sean c]

Two reasons why I fold the poster said MP+1 is tight pre flop and will make plays after the flop. You are prob an underdog pre flop have to make a tough decision after the flop and there is no dead money in the pot. I don't see it as weak or tight.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Am i weak in wanting a preflop fold here?


[/ QUOTE ]
That was my thinking until Trix pointed out earlier today that it's close and really OK to call here.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1573152&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1

[cnfuzzd]

Im folding because this isnt an unknown, this is a tight, tricky player. His stats probably line up really closely to a TAG. If i call, there are three scenarios. 1)(least likely) I flop a monster, win, and feel like the greatest poker player ever. 2) The flop comes somewhat rag-ish, and i either chase my (hopefully) six clean outs and feel stupid when im either shown a bigger pair, or i catch a queen on the turn and AK catches the redraw on the river (there are a plethora of scenarios that fit this option, the redraw is just the most devestating one, another is catching top pair and being dominated by AQ or KJ.) Finally, and what i think is most likely to occur, i flop some sort of hand, and am forced to (mindlessly) go to the river since i know this player is tricky and may be putting a move on my tpmk. I am getting 3.5 (more likely 3 due to rake) on my call pf, but i am never going to make it through five cards enough to take advanatge of my minimal pot equity. Against a random, i thinks its closer, and if i know the player is a touch loose, and i have good control of him post-flop, i think its a call. Not here, and not with this villian.

peace

john nickle

[cnfuzzd]

I am unwilling to make a even a small mistake in a small pot against a tight, tricky player. I have no position, and im either check-folding the flop, or commiting myself to showing down against someone who will make me pay everytime. I agree against an unknown, its probably less marginal, and against a loose opponent, its an ok call. Here, i think it sucks.

peace

john nickle

[rmarotti]

Cool. I get it. Thanks.

[me454555]

I'm for c/ring the turn. I want to represent a set and try to get him to fold. If he's on the tight side pf he may very well have 2 over cards and lay them down on this draw heavy board. You've got plenty of outs if behind so why not try to make a play on him?