Play along with me...

[Nacarno]

2/4 game at a local card club. I'm in the SB with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. BB is way loose passive and so is the CO. They'll call with any sort of draw, strong or weak. Button is tricky and aggressive but hasn't had much luck with his cards tonight.

Preflop:
Everyone folds to the CO who calls. Button calls. Hero ???

[admiralfluff]

hero calls. If the tricky TAG limped from an earlier position, you might have to worry about domination. I think this is a pretty easy call, but if either of the blinds was not LP but LAG, you might want to consider folding. Lots of LAGs love raising in small late limping pots.

[Nacarno]

For the reasons mentioned before, I call. I thought this was a pretty easy call too, but included it for completeness. On we go...

Flop: (only 2 SB because of the rake) 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked around to the Button who bets. Hero ???

I'll wait for some more comments on this part since I think it's more interesting before I post the rest tomorrow, but I'm tired now and I'm going to sleep.

[admiralfluff]

The pot is only 2 SB because of the rake?! That is ridiculous. That puts it to a fold for me. But if you're in it....

The tricky TAG might be disinclined to give a free card with a hand he thinks is best. If you raise he, I would probably expect a stop and go. Also, you would be pushing CO and BB, who you would rather have in the pot at this point I think. No need to worry too much about freeing up K outs from them I suspect. This pushes me towards a call her. If CO and BB call as well, you can certainly take another card off the turn unimproved. If you do catch a flush on the turn, I would definitely go for overcalls with the passives still in the pot, especially cause there is always a chance button is betting the nut flush draw, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Ah6h from him, nor would I be surprised to see Ahxh. You will likely make at least as many BB from the LPs overcalls, and depending on your player reads, you may even want to go for overcalls on the river. But that all depends on the turn methinks.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is only 2 SB because of the rake?! That is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a fairly common rake for 2/4 live I believe. $2 on the flop, $3 at $30 and $4 at $40. Where I play it's a $4 max rake for any limits 2/4-10/20 and anything higher is time charge. At least I think it's common.

[chief444]

Since you checked this looks like a definite call. I think betting out would have been fine also.

[Nacarno]

Hero calls. I'm thinking that if I raise, although the Button could be on a steal and I could have the best hand at the moment, the BB and CO could very well call and I won't know where I'm at if the turn misses me and I'll be out of position. Also, it opens up betting again so that if the Button actually had a hand like A9 he could 3-bet it. If I just call, the BB and CO will probably call thus I'll be getting the odds to draw to my flush and I'll be able to better size up the situation once I see if the turn card helps me.

Turn: (3 BBs) 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero ???

[7ontheline]

I'm not so certain about the preflop call, but I'm used to 3/6. At 2/4, with a $1 SB I would call also. As for the flop - no one else goes for a checkraise here? You have a button who you know is aggressive and may just be stabbing at the pot - you have a pretty good overcard and a good flush draw. Since you checked, I would probably have checkraised the button's bet - maybe you can get the other players to fold for 2 cold - even if no one folds you have outs.

[Nacarno]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the flop - no one else goes for a checkraise here? You have a button who you know is aggressive and may just be stabbing at the pot - you have a pretty good overcard and a good flush draw. Since you checked, I would probably have checkraised the button's bet - maybe you can get the other players to fold for 2 cold - even if no one folds you have outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem I saw with check-raising here was that it was very probable that the BB and CO would call and I'd be left with in a very awkward spot if the turn missed me. What do I do if it's a blank? Checking pretty much defines my hand and the Button is mostly likely going to take advantage of that and make me face a disturbing big bet when I have no idea where I'm at. However, the fact that there are calling stations may give me the proper overlay for raising on the flop since they could be holding next to nothing... I think being first to act I still like to just call and re-evalutae on the turn but If I were in better position in relation to the Button I'd definitely raise it up on the flop if he bet.

[Nacarno]

Bump.

This is where I think the most important decisions have to be made... no one has any comments?

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
This is where I think the most important decisions have to be made... no one has any comments?

[/ QUOTE ]
What exactly do you see as an important decision here? I'm a little confused.

[tripdad]

i would have bet out on the flop. since you didn't, and called, i believe you should also check/call the turn. however, no matter what card comes on the river, i believe a bet out would be my play.

cheers!

[Nacarno]

[ QUOTE ]
What exactly do you see as an important decision here? I'm a little confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well... I have a strong draw now and could even be ahead in the hand. Do I try and get callers for value or try and eliminate players to protect my hand? I think there can be a case made for either check/calling, check/raising, or betting out immediately but I'm curious as to what others would do.

[tripdad]

you certainly do not want anyone out of the pot. what good do you think would come out of that? as far as value betting, i would save that for the river.

cheers!

[Nacarno]

Why wouldn't I want people out of the pot? For flush value? I want to isolate against the Button whom I could have beat, and also get possible hands like A /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif or 77 out that might now fold to a turn raise. Do you think the pot is too small to try this move?

Also, for those who recommend betting out on the flop, what do you recommend doing on the turn if multiple players call and the turn is a blank (which it usually will be)?

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't I want people out of the pot? and also get possible hands like A /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

from the types of players you describe, the chances of you getting them to fold this hand is approximately ZERO%.

if i have a flush draw, i want as many people as possible in the pot, so when i make it, i'll have a better chance to get paid off.

cheers!

[7ontheline]

Well, if the BB and CO are really that bad and you have no fold equity, then I suppose check-raising loses some of its value. In that case I would have bet the flop. Since you didn't, I would either check-call the turn or try a tricky semi-bluff checkraise on the turn - although again, if the BB and CO still wouldn't fold for 2 BB cold then I would just call. I don't understand why you think facing a BB on the turn would be disturbing - you still have plenty of outs to call, especially since you picked up a pair.

As for why I would want to force people out of the pot when I had a good draw, it's because I want to win the pot. Maybe raising will get someone to fold their pair of 6s and my pair of 5s will hold up against an overaggressive button. Maybe a checkraise on the flop would clean up my K outs.

[Nacarno]

So I may have been suffering from FPS but...

Hero checks with the intention of raising the Button. The Button could have hit the straight, but my read tells me he's weaker than that. Checked around to the Button who bets. I raise, BB calls 2 cold (although this doesn't mean much) and the CO folds. Button 3-bets (which could mean as little as A9) but now I know for certain I'm behind, but I'm getting terrific odds to make my flush so I call. BB calls as well setting her all-in.

River: (12 BB) K /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero bets. Good value bet or no?

[Nacarno]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if the BB and CO are really that bad and you have no fold equity, then I suppose check-raising loses some of its value. In that case I would have bet the flop. Since you didn't, I would either check-call the turn or try a tricky semi-bluff checkraise on the turn - although again, if the BB and CO still wouldn't fold for 2 BB cold then I would just call. I don't understand why you think facing a BB on the turn would be disturbing - you still have plenty of outs to call, especially since you picked up a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps "disturbing" was too strong a word, but I don't like giving up the initiative in the hand when it would so clearly define mine. You're right that I'm probably worried too much about it though since the pot odds would be more than adequate for a call on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
As for why I would want to force people out of the pot when I had a good draw, it's because I want to win the pot. Maybe raising will get someone to fold their pair of 6s and my pair of 5s will hold up against an overaggressive button. Maybe a checkraise on the flop would clean up my K outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had the same thinking about raising to improve my chances of winning and to clean up outs but I thought doing so on the turn would give me more (though possibly not much) folding equity.