Flopped bottom two pair . How did I play it ?

[theredpill]

This was tough to take. Let me know what you think.
Opponent is loose with his money and play a lot of hands especially hands with bad kickers.


Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB Full Table converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
MP1 (17.75)
MP2 (11.30)
CO ($9)
Button($19.95)
SB ($5.66)
Hero ($28.85)
UTG ($20.6)
EP ($62.80)
EP2 ($23.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
FOLD FOLD FOLD CO checks, button calls, SB calls, Hero checks

Flop: ($1.00) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $1.80 </font>, Hero raises to $5.50, CO folds, Button folds , SB calls All-in ($3.61),

Turn: ($11.27) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players) 1 all-in.

River: ($11.27) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">

Final Pot: $11.27

Hope this works. I did a little fudging with the code to get it to work so it would look better.

[edge]

If the opponent is loose and overplays weak hands, like you said, then the hand looks perfect. So you got outdrawn by a Q. Oh well, nothing you can do about it.

[theredpill]

Yeah, I had been watching him. He called a raise preflop with a K 3 or something and hit a king. The opponent had Q Q and busted his Queens but he played it like he had A K or K Q . This guy is a fish. Lost his entire stack later on betting his A K (ace high) all the way to teh river if you can believe it. $25 buy-in . He has $60. He bets like $3 on flop (blinds are .10/.25). Guy calls. Turn he bets $10...still with just ace high. Guy calls. River: still nothing . He pushes the rest of it in. Guy calls with J J and he is left with like $10.
I was 72 % to win right there. AA got beat by A K earlier.

[theredpill]

Another hand
Please give advice. Thanks. I do read advice and follow it.

.10/.25 NL Full ring

Hero has A/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB ($16.15)
Hero ($39.15)


EP raises to $1
Hero reraises to $2
folded around
EP calls

Board: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif ($3.35)
EP checks
Hero bets $3.25
SB calls $3.25

Turn: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($9.85)
Hero bets $12.50
SB Calls All-in ($10.90)

River: 3/images/graemlins/club.gif

Final Pot: 32.65

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Another hand
Please give advice. Thanks. I do read advice and follow it.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EP raises to $1
Hero reraises to $2


[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder if anyone ever gave you advice that min-raising preflop was a bad idea?

[theredpill]

Yeah but its .25 blinds. OK, maybe that was bad but you don't want him to fold preflop when you have A A right ?

[theredpill]

88 % to win preflop.
53 % to win on flop
75 % to win on turn when I put him all-in.

I bet small when I wasn't huge favorite and big when I was.

You say you don't like something but you don't give a correction. I didn't minimum raise the whole day as a matter of fact and I don't call this minimum raising.

You think I should raise to $3 or $4 or perhaps go all-in . Well, he folds and he makes a perfect decision and I don't make any more money. I'm all ears, though for suggestions. I did lose about $20 on this play.

[TheWorstPlayer]

How do you know these percentages without knowing his hand? And the reasons why min-raising or min-reraising is bad were pretty clearly laid out in the other thread with AK. You don't want him to fold, but you want to get the most out of him and you don't want him to get the correct implied odds to call. A min-reraise is not getting the most out of him. If you want to be deceptive, just smooth call. If you want to make him pay to play, make it a normal sized raise.

[theredpill]

Ok, so I should either raise big preflop or smooth call ? You are saying that this affects the odds on the flop , turn, and river ? Ok, so I smooth call here and he has a little more to lose on the flop and turn. Is that what you are getting at ? So I can screw his odds up worse ? He still didn't get 3 to 1 on the turn. He was getting like 2 to 1. He was calling $11 to make $21. He needed 3 to 1 odds. He had 11 outs. I thought it was 13 but if it is a J of clubs or 5 of clubs then I got a full house.

[TheWorstPlayer]

whoa whoa whoa. No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that preflop you have the best hand, so you should try to get as much money into the pot as you can. That is the point of re-raising. They are saying "I have a good hand, I want this to be a big pot because there is a good chance I am going to win it." and you are saying "Oh yeah? Well I have an even better hand than you do, so I want it to be a REALLY big pot because I have a REALLY good chance of winning it." So you want to make a raise which actually affects the size of the pot substantially, not just min-raising. My point about odds was that if you lose with AA, there is a pretty good chance you are losing your stack, because that is a good hand and it is hard to admit to yourself that you are behind so you end up calling a lot of money when you are behind. Therefore, the "reverse implied odds" of having AA are very high, meaning your OPPONENT has good implied odds of playing AGAINST your AA. Therefore, you want to make him put a lot of money in preflop, because if he hits a good flop, there is a good chance that YOU will still put a lot of money in POST flop. Therefore, you want to make it expensive for him to SEE that advantageous flop. Then the last point about smooth calling was that it can be deceptive. Let's say he raises and you call. Then the flop comes Kxx. He will probably think "well, I have AK so I have TPTK. I am only losing to a set or to AA or KK. He probably doesn't have AA or KK because he would have re-raised preflop and the odds of having a set are not that great so I am going to bet a lot." You have fooled him into thinking you don't have AA because you didnt do what he would expect you to do with AA and that can work to your advantage. In general, though, that is a risky play because by not re-raising you are giving him a cheap shot at outflopping you which is bad when you have AA, as I said, because of the reverse implied odds. Cheers.

[Allinlife]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so I should either raise big preflop or smooth call ? You are saying that this affects the odds on the flop , turn, and river ? Ok, so I smooth call here and he has a little more to lose on the flop and turn. Is that what you are getting at ? So I can screw his odds up worse ? He still didn't get 3 to 1 on the turn. He was getting like 2 to 1. He was calling $11 to make $21. He needed 3 to 1 odds. He had 11 outs. I thought it was 13 but if it is a J of clubs or 5 of clubs then I got a full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy overestimating your opponents. THEY CAN'T SEE YOUR CARD and players at this level don't play by the books. raising bigger preflop will build the pot so the player will get pot commited easier hence increasing the chance of stacking him by river.

[theredpill]

You mean a $3 or $4 reraise preflop wouldn't scare him off. That is what you are saying Allinlife ? Perhaps it would needle him to push all-in as well ? I can't read you guys' mind so you need to be more specific. I haven't been playing poker for 5 years. I've only been playing since like May of last year.

[MarkL444]

the hand in your original post is fine

[TheWorstPlayer]

After my last post, do you understand what we mean? Yes, re-raise $3 dollars (TO $4).

[fimbulwinter]

I respectfully disagree with the comments thus far.

read this post for commentary about how to play semi-strong hands that new/weak players very often overvalue; hand #1 is almost identical:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1428873&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1

fim

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I respectfully disagree with the comments thus far.

[/ QUOTE ]
Does that include my comments on the preflop re-raise? If so, could you elaborate?

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I respectfully disagree with the comments thus far.

[/ QUOTE ]
Does that include my comments on the preflop re-raise? If so, could you elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a post in response to the original hand posted. the AA hand is a much easier question with replies that I agree with 100%.

fim

[TheWorstPlayer]

OK, cool. And check/call on hand 1 is nice.

[theredpill]

So in the A A hand, you think I should have reraised to $3 preflop to get the money in or perhaps smooth called ? Do I have this right and how should I decide which to do ? Base it on what I think he has ? Based on his previous raising and previous holdings ?

Reraised to $3 preflop when I had AA because if he misses the flop, I'm still getting some money out of him ? Do I have it now ?

Also, thanks Fimbul, I see what you are saying about my T 8 hand. No scare cards come and my 70 % win percentage increases to probably 85 or 87 % . Right ? So maybe I just call his bet on the flop and see the turn. BTW, he had Q 7 . A good player would fold this on the flop to my enormous bet unless he thinks I'm trying to muscle him out of the pot I suppose with my big stack.

So on AA, I have choices but not really choices on how to play the T 8 .

[pho75]

I have to say that was the best explanation of why it's generally a bad idea to slowplay AA.

[kim2005]

hand 1) flop must raise and it is just a bad beat.

hand 2) your though is wrong, small stake ppl are more loose and they will call your raise anyway, so why don't raise more preflop?
your min raise is suck, I like to play with guy like u

[Wayfare]

[ QUOTE ]

your min raise is suck, I like to play with guy like u

[/ QUOTE ]

I nominate this for quote of the week.

[kim2005]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

your min raise is suck, I like to play with guy like u

[/ QUOTE ]

I nominate this for quote of the week.

[/ QUOTE ]

........I mean I like to play with guy playing AA this way.

[Wayfare]

I know exactly what you meant, it's just that I can see a korean guy saying exactly that in my head when I read it.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kurto]

You wrote... "This guy is a fish. Lost his entire stack later on betting his A K (ace high) all the way to teh river if you can believe it."

On the last hand you posted, you bluffed with an AK (Ace high) on the river and lost when someone else clearly hit the flop and you didn't.

And now you call someone else bluffing with the same hand a fish?

[kurto]

"You think I should raise to $3 or $4 or perhaps go all-in . Well, he folds and he makes a perfect decision and I don't make any more money. I'm all ears, though for suggestions. I did lose about $20 on this play."

Seems you posted your own answer. You didn't raise enough giving him the perfect decision to fold... giving you that pot. Instead, you let him in cheap and it cost you $20.

In the months you've been playing, how often have you seen someone limp or make tiny raises with pocket aces allowing someone with a 10-J or the like to take the flop, hit 2 pair and take a huge pot?

If he raised a dollar, he has a good hand... your reraise of a dollar wasn't going to take the pot. And you gave him a chance to beat you post flop.

[Biff M.]

Has anyone ever argued that this guy is a fish?

[theredpill]

[ QUOTE ]

your min raise is suck, I like to play with guy like u

[/ QUOTE ]

Bring it on F U C K E R

[MonkeeMan]

Well put and right on.

[theredpill]

Thanks to all who posted in this thread. I learned something that I hadn't thought about. Implied odds when dealing with AA . He is 10 to 1 to beat my AA and generally I will be all-in by the river. The way I played it preflop, I was giving him about 15 to 1 to call preflop which was great odds for him. I should have raise to $3 or $4 , thus giving him 5 to 1 odds on a 10 to 1 draw. I understand it now, thanks.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Glad I could help. That is a nice succinct summary of why re-raising preflop is important and should not be a min-raise.