Consensus on completing the SB at PP 15/30

[teddyFBI]

Forgive the relatively naive Q, but I've just recently jumped up to the 15/30 tables, and want to know what the consensus here is on when to 'complete' the $10 SB? Since it's already 2/3 of a full bet, I'm obviously getting great PO, but how about with the trashiest of trash hands...? Sometimes there's 5 or 6 limpers, and I'm struggling to throw away my J3o -- it's just $5 more into a $100 pot...what's the consensus here on how often i should be playing?

[HiatusOver]

I pretty much always complete multi-way...the real question is what to do when it is folded to you heads up and you have 62o vs a pro in the BB

[BigDan9]

I tend to stick with the fairly straightforward principle in those multi-way (but unraised) pre-flop pots that it's worth completing the blind with a hand that could make the nut straight, or any two suited cards. I just don't think a hand like J3os (or even something like K4os) will be profitable, even with that sort of blind structure.

[Barry]

Yeah I pretty much throw away all small card hands when it's folded to me in the SB.

[BottlesOf]

Clark says it's okto complete any 2 in unraised pots, so that's what I do. Remember the tremendous implied odds on a complete that costs you 1/3 of a sb. I'll occasinally muck uber trash if folded to me in sb against an aggressive bb.

[teddyFBI]

The tone of some of these responses has me wondering a follow-up Q: what's standard protocol when it's folded around to you in the SB -- some of the responses are implying that it's an auto-raise with any 2 cards...(except against a hyper-aggressive who won't hesitate to 3-bet any 2)...is this the case? I'll usually fold uber-trash, raise anything above-average, and limp w/ monsters. What do y'all recommend?

[steveyz]

I'll complete any two if there's 2 or more limpers as long as the BB isn't a very frequent raiser. With one limper I'll play most hands but will throw away something like J3o, but I'll basically play any straight cards, any suited, any Ace, any King, any pair obviously, and maybe even something like Q7o.
When it's folded to me in the SB, I don't have an SOP. It depends a lot on the BB and also how well I'm running. If I'm up at the table and taking down a lot of pots, I'll raise any 2. Also if the BB is weak I might raise any 2. In general, I either raise or fold. I also see a lot of limping and fold if raised, but if BB checks, betting any flop. Although I think in general in that situation, just raising is superior.

[Ryno]

The problem with playing J3o for a lot of players is that the flop comes Jxx, and they stay until the end. If there are 3 limpers, and you are going to call with trash in the name of pot odds, remember to fold on the flop if you miss - and shaky pair no kicker is a miss.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Clark says it's okto complete any 2 in unraised pots, so that's what I do. Remember the tremendous implied odds on a complete that costs you 1/3 of a sb. I'll occasinally muck uber trash if folded to me in sb against an aggressive bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

so clark says its ok, that must mean anybody can do it....

NOT...completing any two in 2chip/3chip structure may be ok for him, but i still toss hands like j3. my rule is it has to be able to make a straight or have decent top pair value or be suited (any 2 suited is ok by me) UNLESS there are significant people in the pot where i have massive implied odds for something like j3. its only any 2 when the conditions are right. for the most part i play a tad tighter than that. but when i do call with j3o its because two pair or trips will make me a great deal of money...typically in a limped multiway pot, that top pair of jacks is in trouble.

but im not clark, you're not clark, in fact, at times i doubt clark is even clark. so dont just take advice willy nilly.

-Barron

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]

so clark says its ok, that must mean anybody can do it....

NOT...completing any two in 2chip/3chip structure may be ok for him, but i still toss hands like j3.

[/ QUOTE ]


Let's think a little. Would I post to play like this just because Clark does it? No. Clark said it's ok FOR ME, or for most 15/30 playing 2+2ers tp complete any 2 in the sb.

I posted this same question a month ago: "Should I be completing any 2 in the sb in unraised pots, or what?" And Clark said it was fine. I don't think Clark would give advice on these forums that applied only to him without saying that, and he certainly wouldn't do it in response to a post I had made.

[IndieMatty]

I complete a lot..3-8o, 27o etc...I'll fold most of the time.. but also, no one has mentioned who the limpers are, I may be way more apt to complet k4o with a few limpers who love small suited connectors, or who may even play kx trash themselves.

[Buckshot]

My mentor told me to complete with any 2 cards after >2 limpers. I'm not a big advocate on this policy. I tend to fold my SB often. My PT stats have my SB VP$IP at 8%. Does that seems awfully high?

[CORed]

I don't complete with absolute trash, but i complete with anything suited except 32s, ofsuit connectors down to 54, any ace and k7 or better. I will fold the aces and kings with really bad kickers if it's multi-way, because they tend to win small or lose big.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

so clark says its ok, that must mean anybody can do it....

NOT...completing any two in 2chip/3chip structure may be ok for him, but i still toss hands like j3.

[/ QUOTE ]


Let's think a little. Would I post to play like this just because Clark does it? No. Clark said it's ok FOR ME, or for most 15/30 playing 2+2ers tp complete any 2 in the sb.

I posted this same question a month ago: "Should I be completing any 2 in the sb in unraised pots, or what?" And Clark said it was fine. I don't think Clark would give advice on these forums that applied only to him without saying that, and he certainly wouldn't do it in response to a post I had made.

[/ QUOTE ]

well then i still think clark is wrong. and mason agrees, and made a qualifying post about HPFAP to change the advice there (to play any 2 in the sb for 1chip in 2/3 chip blinds). sometimes when CM and MM argue i agree with clark, sometimes with mason. but in this regard, i think you (the general you) lose enough in the blinds not to be completing 2/3 blinds with total crap. just fold it and save 1/6 of a bb.

you can save a bb by folding ONE hand that you would otherwise call with (lets say 72) 6 times. that bb could now be put to better use. mason said any hand that can make a straight, any 2 suited cards and i think any big little higher than J...but that last one i still restrict to higher than J6 or Q7. anything else goes in the muck..

if clark is 100% correct here and mason is 100% wrong, what have i lost? proportionally more volatility than expectation. and to me thats all right. but as that spectrum moves toward mason, the savings you get actually increases your expectation AND lowers your volatility.

oops...read: volatility=st.dev.

-Barron

[BottlesOf]

Cool, thanks for the follow up. GOt a link to that thread by any chance? If not, no worries.

Am I

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Cool, thanks for the follow up. GOt a link to that thread by any chance? If not, no worries.

Am I

[/ QUOTE ]

no problem JBB,

but you have to pay for that advice...it is now YOUR responsibility to squelch this argument next time it surfaces by referencing this thread. these posts are getting quite repetative.
-Barron

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
well then i still think clark is wrong. and mason agrees, and made a qualifying post about HPFAP to change the advice there (to play any 2 in the sb for 1chip in 2/3 chip blinds).

[/ QUOTE ]

Link to this? I remember Mason saying, on these boards, that it is probably correct to play nearly any two cards from the SB in this blind structure.

[ QUOTE ]
but in this regard, i think you (the general you) lose enough in the blinds not to be completing 2/3 blinds with total crap. just fold it and save 1/6 of a bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

In general you cannot say that by folding you save 1/6 of a BB.

[ QUOTE ]
you can save a bb by folding ONE hand that you would otherwise call with (lets say 72) 6 times

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, it's not as definitive as this.

[ QUOTE ]
mason said any hand that can make a straight, any 2 suited cards and i think any big little higher than J...but that last one i still restrict to higher than J6 or Q7.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, please link because I remember him saying something else entirely but the thread I am remembering is old.

Your implied odds from the SB in this spot is huge. If you collect even 1SB post flop then you have gotten implied odds of 3:1 - this gives you a ton of flexibility. The cost of playing a horrible hand like 72o must be less than 1/6BB. Having said that, I have been folding a tiny bit more in the SB then I used to. I have gone from 0% fold rate (without a raise in front) to slightly higher.

Also, I would think SB play in this blind structure will have very little effect on your SD.

[DcifrThs]

MarkD,

I have to find the link, but its not that old. Last year or maybe 2 years ago some time mason came out and said that the advice in HPFAP needed qualification. and yes...you still end up playing "nearly any two cards"... i also gave the 72o example as an hyperbolie.

but i guess i'll have to find the thread. all in all MM said you can still play nearly any two cards...but that is noticably different than any two cards.

also, you are correct that the absolute affect on st.dev is very small...but the relative affect on it i think would be noticable.

all in all, the point is that i play tighter in the small blind than is likely optimal (likely slightly tighter than your current standards) but in aggro games that is fine by me.

-Barron

[Gabe]

In a live 3/2 blind structure, I think I probably complete more often with one limper, than several.

[bobbyi]

I find this interesting because Mason recently said that "The chance of me admitting that the advice in our books is off is zero." (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=15 15549&Forum=f4&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=250&Main= 1508672&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=3&daterange =1&newerval=1&newertype=m&olderval=&oldertype=&bod yprev=1#Post1515549) So I would be curious to see where he said that the advice in hpfap is off. I'm also curious because I currently tend to complete with any two when I play 15/30.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I find this interesting because Mason recently said that "The chance of me admitting that the advice in our books is off is zero." (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=15 15549&Forum=f4&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=250&Main= 1508672&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=3&daterange =1&newerval=1&newertype=m&olderval=&oldertype=&bod yprev=1#Post1515549) So I would be curious to see where he said that the advice in hpfap is off. I'm also curious because I currently tend to complete with any two when I play 15/30.

[/ QUOTE ]
how does mason's 80 hand w/ AK relate to blind completion?

it was a post he REPLIED to saying the advice about playing the blinds for $5 or 1 chip in 2chip/3chip structure is SLIGHTLY off and should read "nearly any two." that post you linked to is not the one to which i refer...

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

its official. i suck at searching as i cannot remember the post title or how it came up, but can some poster who remembers this post (where mason qualified the advice about small blind play in 2/3 chip structure) please either find it or back me up here...

or at least tell me how to find it.

thanks
-Barron

[MaxPower]

Jennifer Harmon in her Supersystem II chapter also says you should mostly call. She says there are few if any situations where you should fold in a unraised pots. She also says, that if it is only you and the BB, you should call. She says it is the right play even if you get raised, but she doesn't say what you should do if you are raised.

Personally, I will occasionaly fold two low cards in the SB, when the BB is very tough and aggressive. I also complete the small blind with any two cards when there are limpers or one limper.

I am starting to question the value of this advice as I so rarely flop anything worthwhile when I complete with trash hands. The occassional monster may not make up for all those calls.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
My mentor told me to complete with any 2 cards after >2 limpers. I'm not a big advocate on this policy. I tend to fold my SB often. My PT stats have my SB VP$IP at 8%. Does that seems awfully high?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are playing 15/30, I think that is absurdly low.

[jetsonsdogcanfly]

yeah my SB VP$IP is about 50.

[andyfox]

Quoted without permission, but I know he'd give it. I think.

"A decent amount has been written about playing 'Any two' in the SB of a 2/3 chip game. And, yet, I feel that not enough has been written.

See, the problem is...you are getting like 14:1 on your call. Even if the BB never ever ever ever ever raises preflop, that's not enough.

Sure, you'll win the pot more than 1 in 15 times against 4 opponents. But hands like this make the second best hand waaaay too often.

A friend of mine once asked me what hands I won't play in a situation like this. My response was 'weak unsuited face cards'. I'd seriously rather have 73o in this spot than K4o. Yeah, K4o will win more often, but K4o will also lose many bets waaaaay too often.

I was talking with a friend in Vegas during the WSOP. he's new to poker, and asked about 'seeing the flop' in the SB w/ specifically Q6o (very similar). My discussion went basically like:

Alright, you may flop quads. That's a good flop. And, you may flop trips. Your trips will win pretty frequently (when nobody else flops trips, and any/all draws miss), but when they lose, you'll be barbequed. And then there's all the times you flop two pair.

You have Q6o, and the flop comes Q86 with two clubs. The only reason you saw the flop was because it was 6 or 7 way action. It's still 6 or 7 way action. What do you want the other two cards to be? You'll have to pound the bejeezus outta the flop and turn, and hope that nobody improves by the river.

Same with K4o. Gimme 94o instead. Then I can't flop top pair as easily, and i can get away from it except when i get a good flop (quads). But with weak unsuited face cards, you make the second best hand waaaay too often.

And what if you flop just one pair. If the flop was KQ3 two-tone. MP bets, and zero or one person calls. now what do you do? Check/call the whole way? Push your weak hand? Nothing looks too good. And yet, if its heads up, you gonna fold top pair? That can't be a good habit to get into. And you're committed to being out of position.

I guess what I'm saying is, throw the crap away. Look, you even said that your 'timing' is off now. You seem uncertain of yourself (perfectly normal and expected). Well, make life easy on yourself. don't put yourself in a situation where there are no easy decisions.

Poker is easy right now. don't make it hard. playing K4o out of position is hard."

[DcifrThs]

Josh W's post also explains why plaing crappy big littles in the sb will increase your st. dev.

-Barron

[andyfox]

I think this makes sense with weak unsuited face cards, as per Josh W.'s elaboration.