Party 15/30 Protect or pump

[JeffO]

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">

Hero??

A)bet out hoping to get a raise from the button and then just call getting two SB from the field. Lead the turn.

B) bet out, hoping the button raises and then 3 bet forcing the field to call two more cold preflop and possibly thining the field.

C) go for the check raise on the flop forcing the field to call 2 cold.

My action and the results later.

[TStoneMBD]

well betting out on this flop is definitely the standard. whether to 3bet or just call then leading the turn is a little more complex. i havent seen any good threads on this matter. in my opinion, if the board is rainbow and uncoordinated id just call and lead the turn if there are callers from my bet. if its coordinated and nonrainbow id 3bet.

[sublime]

i would lead out and 3-bet a flop raise from the button.

a couple of reasons:
1) the button might not bet the flop
2) obvious value on the initial flop bet
3) if you 3-bet the button a gutshot or mid/bottom pair will probably call anyways

[TStoneMBD]

my arguement for calling and leading the turn is you force the callers in the middle to pay 1 more bet when they will rarely have the correct odds to do so. then if you lead the turn they may have to continue chasing without correct odds, and the button will probably raise his overpair, so you gain far more bets.

[tpir90036]

"C" is definitely the worst option of the 3. Chances are most of the field is drawing mostly dead and I would try to sandwich them for as many bets as I can. I would lead out and 3-bet if raised and then lead out again. If PF raiser caps I might try to C/R the turn but I would really like to get a bunch of turn calls instead of just 2 from the raiser.

[sublime]

my arguement for calling and leading the turn is you force the callers in the middle to pay 1 more bet when they will rarely have the correct odds to do so.

yeah but they will likely call two after you lead out. most mid/bottom pairs are gonna call one then two anyways, and the board seems to have a good amount of gutshot draws that will also do the same.

leading the turn is prolly the best move no matter what. of course all this in contingent on the button doing all the playing back at us.

[Barry]

Given your relative position to the PFR, I'm with sublime here. At PP 15/30 they will call; get in as many bets as you can.

[TStoneMBD]

oh ok i dont play PP15. in the live games im in the players will be more inclined to fold for 2 bets in comparison to 1.

[JasonP530]

Lets say you lead, 2 call and the button raises(as he may with a gutshot, overpair, ten and many other things on Party). If you 3 bet, you will either get the limpers to fold having put in 1SB, or call 2 more drawing to a gutshot or with a pair(which is drawing nearly dead). Also, leading ensures that it will not get checked around if the button has AK or something else he doesnt want to bet. I dont think the decision is close here.

In passive games, you may be better off checkraising so that the limpers do not get odds with gutshots. In your typical agressive game, you can expect to get raised when you bet, so there is no need to worry about giving people odds.

[stoxtrader]

I lead this flop.

[JeffO]

[ QUOTE ]
I lead this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, and lets say you get 2 or 3 callers and the button raises. Now do you 3 bet and probably drive out a couple of limpers, or call and lead the turn?

[JeffO]

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button folds.

River: (10 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16 bb

MP1 had A8o and hit his straight. MP3 had a 3 for the bottom end of the straight.

As you can see the button failed to cooperate by not raising. So I played it the only way I could, and made the crying call when I was raised on the river.

My thinking in situations like this is to always lead. Really the only question is if the button does raise do you want to 3 bet and force the limpers to call 2 SB cold, or just call the buttons raise and lead the turn. On an uncoordinated board I think I call and lead the turn. On a coordinated board I three bet forcing them to call 2 cold.

[steveyz]

I like option B. I don't like C as button may check through with overcards. With option A, any gut-shot will be getting the right price to call.

[steveyz]

I 3-bet.