playing too fast?

[Che]

Sunday night UB $215 for both hands.

Hand 1: Blinds 30/60. 234 left, 40 paid, average ~3500

2 folds, I open for 210 with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (5095), next to act calls (2030), 5 folds, BB calls (3380).

Flop: A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (Pot=660)

Check, I bet the pot, both fold.

Hand 2: 3 hands later at the same table. Blinds still 30/60.

CO open limps (BB from Hand 1, but now he has 5230), Button folds, SB completes.

I’m in the BB with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif (5425). I raise the pot.

CO calls the extra 180, SB folds.

Flop: 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif (Pot=540)

I bet the pot. He folds.

--------- /images/graemlins/frown.gif ----------

Am I playing these hands too fast? Just right?

If you would slowplay one, but not the other, why?

Later,
Che

[Jason Strasser]

Che,

Im not too sure why you are asking this question... It really has everything to do with your style of play. I know how you play generally, and you want to be coming out firing in these types of spots. The reasons...

1) You have hands where you are willing to get a lot of money in the pot, so you should protect them. Neither of these two hands are extremely powerful hands. A free card could lead to even a draw for an opponent which is bad.

2) You are going to be raising pf and betting a lot when you have nothing. So you have to bet when you have something!

3) Dont be upset you didnt get more action here. Neither of these hands are anywhere near slowplay candidates in my book.

-Jason

p.s. The more Ive learned about poker, the less I've slowplayed. I really rarely slowplay, and most of the time it is when I feel like a free card will get more action froma hand I beat.

[Msogard]

I don't really hate either one. At first look it seems like your pot size bet may have scared them off, but a bet of 2/3 the pot probably would've found the same result.

In the first one, whether you bet 2/3 or the pot (1/2 the pot is too low to charge flush draw), Ax is probably coming along. So with two opponents I think your bet was good.

In the second one I think the pot size bet against one opponent is a little too much. I think you want action here, and with a pot size bet you're only going to get action if your beat (10-10, A4). It's a great flop for you, and there's very few cards that scare you (Ace, 10). I'd bet half the pot here and not scare off hands with little chance of improving, like K10 or middle pairs.

Back to HOH.

[Che]

Jason-

[ QUOTE ]
Dont be upset you didnt get more action here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not upset. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Neither of these hands are anywhere near slowplay candidates in my book.


[/ QUOTE ]

What qualifies as a slowplay candidate in your book, Mr. I 4-Table the Stars $5/$10 While Playing the $3/$6 Just for Kicks?

Seriously, an example would be OK, but I'm more interested in what conditions you are looking for (and why the KK hand doesn't qualify).

Later,
Che

[zaxx19]

HAND 1

Id lead a little weaker at the first Pot as to allow an Ace to reraise without pot commiting himself here...as it played out 2 of the guys prolly would have been stuck if they reraised here.


Id slow play this ...and might even check(I do play lower buyins so...) depending on the opponent. I want J10 A10 and possibly Q10s and k10s TO BET STRONGLY at the pot there to try and take it down right away fearing a free card to the raiser.

Again I play lower buyins but I really think the first hand has to be bet a little bit weaker given the opponents stack sizes.

[Jason Strasser]

I wouldnt slow play by default any hand on either of these two boards on the flop, even 44 or TT on the second board. Its such an ugly looking board, a flop bet is often going to get looked up by ace high or middle pairs, and often opponents will think the flop bet looks suspicious. If the board was T44 and I had TT or 44 and there was a flush draw out there, I may be tempted to give a free card so that someone could pick up the flush or even 4-flush draw. But it seems I win the big pots when I bet the flop, so that is my default. I also may even bet more flops than you when I have diddly squat so I feel an obligation to a higher being to balance out my karma.

If im in a hand against a solid opponent who raises PF and checks the flop, I raise an eyebrow... Especially HU. You have to assume there are players out there who also do the same.

In terms of my game selection these days, I really am enjoying cash games on stars a lot. I play a lot of the 200,500,1k HU matches too which can be fun against the right people. But the NL ring are also really fun.

-Jason

[Sam T.]

I never thought I'd say this, but I'm not sure I agree with Jason here.

Against one opponent, I'd advocate a position between the slow play (if by slow-play you mean giving the opponent a free card), and the pot sized bets you are putting out there. Obviously taking down the pot on the flop is an acceptable outcome of many hands, but the optimal result would be for you to give your opponent incorrect odds to call, and for him to call anyway.

As I see it, the goal in situations such as these is to force your opponent to make mistakes. By betting the pot, you are making it painfully easy for an opponent with a second best hand to fold, which (from his perspective) is the correct play. If you put out a bet of 1/2 to 2/3 the pot, you are more likely to get calls from people who are behind, but don't have the odds to call. Yes, they will sometimes catch their miracle card, but more often they will not, and you'll have a few hundred more chips to stack.

In Hand One, your pot sized bet is going to chase away a number of hands that might come along if you didn't charge them so much for the ride. (AJ and even AK may lay-down here.) And if someone wants to take 3:1 odds to hit their flush draw, it's +ev for you. Even (a few of) the idjits in $10 tournaments know that chasing flush draws when laid 2:1 odds is a losing proposition.

[drexah]

Che, i was in the same exact situation last night in two MTT's and went to irc for some advice. You can't slowplay these hands because you have to put pressure on your opponents to make mistakes. Giving them a free turn is either going to make them call a small bet if they are on a draw, or could possibley let them hit their hand (a set possibley) either way, over time, you have to bet the flop to protect your hand. sucks sometimes to not get paid off but eventually with patience you will, just let them make the mistakes of calling these bets on the flop because it does happen often.

[woodguy]

Hey Che,

I agree with Jason that slow plays are 99% incorrect unless you have a true monster and no cards can scare you AND its a multiway pot.

The best way to win a big pot is to start building it yourself so checking to let someone else take the lead is usually wrong unless you against a maniac who can be counted on to bet.

Even with the maniac, it can be good to bet out as he may raise.

After reading Harrington I have changed my continuation bets to 1/2 pot if no flush draw and 2/3 pot if there is a flush draw regardles of whether I hit or not.

This has got me a little more action, but the action is usually dependent on what hands I have shown down previously with these bets.

Another benefit of these sizes of bets is that its easier to get away when you miss and get played back at as you are not as pot-stuck as you are with a pot sized bet.

Hand 1- I would bet about 2/3 pot, probably get the same result.

Hand 2- I would actually bet the pot here as I want it to look like I whiffed with overcards and am trying to buy the pot, so I like it.

Playing too fast is something I have struggled with as well, but the upside is that when someone looks you up with 2nd best hand the pots are usually large.

Another benefit of playing fast is that when you do get played back at and have to lay down, the next time you lead out you are moere likely to get the action you want.

If you aren't getting the action you want, maybe you aren't playing enough pots (Che not playing enough pots??? I can't belive I just typed that!! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif)

Just my $0.02.

Regards,
Woodguy

[eMarkM]

Hand 1: I like the pot sized bet against two players. Offer draws 2-1 on their money making it incorrect to draw and get paid off by anyone with a lone Ace pair.

Hand 2: Here I would bet somewhat less. There are no draws out there and you'd like some action when you get the cowboys. You have one opponent, so I would bet 1/2 to 2/3rds the pot and make it look like a weak continuation bet where you missed with A-face. A lot of aggressive players would sense weakness and come over the top with nada.

[Ian J]

Che,

I'm with EMark on this one. The first one the pot bet looks good because of the flush draw and the gutshot on board. You also could get some good action from an ace regardless.

On the second hand, my standard line has been to bet this flop, but make it look as much liked whiffed AK as possible. Of course, I'd make the same 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot bet with AK and that's why the play works. Players will see this and try to run you off your hand and you can then just get the money in right there. I don't know how you'd feel about getting raised and getting it in there, but I'd have not a worry in the world about it.

[mikeyworm]

I agree with emark and ianj. On that first hand I am definitley betting the pot due to the draws and the Ace on board.

The 2nd hand is a little trickier. I used to always bet at least 3/4 of the pot in this situation to make it look as though it was an AK that missed. However, after reading Harrington, I have decided to lower my continuation bets to between 1/2 and 2/3 of the pot. I have been getting similar results without investing nearly as many chips.

My question here is what do you do if you get flat called on that flop bet and a brick falls on the turn. Do you lead out for the full pot or something less. I am still really confused when it comes to turn bets with my big hands that haven't improved on uncoordinated boards.

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
Id slow play this ...and might even check(I do play lower buyins so...) depending on the opponent. I want J10 A10 and possibly Q10s and k10s TO BET STRONGLY at the pot there to try and take it down right away fearing a free card to the raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? Checking here would be the worst possible thing you could do. What's your plan of action if an ace comes on the turn? Check and fold? This is simply bad advice.

You played these hands just fine, Che. No worries. If betting exactly the pot is your style, that's fine, but you often don't have to bet so much to drive out your competition.

[Brad F.]

GREAT post folks (other than Zaxx's iffy slow play advice)

Lots of good advice, and it's really made me evaluate what my betting really means in these situations. Am I happy to get the chips and not let a villian hit a monster card? Or do I want to make my opponents call and make a mistake on a draw, overevaluating his or her outs?

Definitely something I am going to keep in mind more often in these types of situations.

Brad

[zaxx19]

Are you kidding? Checking here would be the worst possible thing you could do. What's your plan of action if an ace comes on the turn? Check and fold? This is simply bad advice.

I wasnt advising you check here ....G-d this forum is silly sometimes....

I said I MIGHT EVEN CHECK DEPENDING ON THE OPPONENT. That means given the right opponent(perhaps 10-20% of opponents will auto-bet this if this hand is checked to them to represent a PP) I might consider checking(maybe 1/4th the time depending on how bad the opponent is).....this figures out to roughly probably 5% of the time. I also noted I played at lower limits than this....which is why for me it is more advantageous to trap people.

On the first hand I really think you need to lead weaker no matter what limits you play at for the resons I listed before.

[Che]

I think Hand 1 should probably never be slowplayed. Ax is coming along for at least one bet and the flush draws would love a free card (not to mention KJ/99-type longshots that can really mess you up if they sneak one in on you).

Hand 2 is a slowplay candidate IMHO, but I would still bet it most of the time. Reasons not to slowplay in this case:

1. We're out of position.
2. I just raised preflop and then fired at the flop 3 hands ago with this opponent in the mix. He could easily get suspicious and reraise a small pocket pair or even nothing.

However, I would slowplay this against agressive opponents some of the time since I am either way ahead or way behind in the hand.

Way behind: AA/TT/4x
5 outs: Tx
3 outs: Ax
2 outs: QQ-22, except TT/44 obviously
dead to runner-runner: everything else

So, I would sometimes slowplay this in a cash game, but I would rarely do it in a tourney (on stacks this deep) since I'm looking to double with this hand, not just get one extra bet out of the opponent.

Thanks to all who responded,
Che