when to defend blind?

[Laughingboy]

Is KTs a reasonable hand to call a modest raise from the bb? Raiser utg, 5 callers, early in tourney (level 1), raise of 3bb

Perhaps I shouldn't be thinking about defending blinds at all so early, but the odds seemed good enough to look at the flop to me. My more experienced friend says no, though. Opinions?

[raptor517]

you are right, you shouldnt even be thinking about defending this early /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Creeper_thp]

With this many people in, and this big of a pot, you're going to need an almost perfect flop, because it's incredibly unlikely you're going to see the turn cheaply, let alone for free. Say you flop a 4-flush, it's most likely someone else hit AT LEAST top pair and there's no way they're letting you see that turn. So unless you flop 2 pair or better, you're folding. Save your chips for a better spot.

[Laughingboy]

Yep, I need to save those "odds" notions for limit /images/graemlins/wink.gif I should go reread my McEvoy NL book, it seems. Thanks.

[Scuba Chuck]

Reading McEvoy would help. But reading 2+2 is better. There is a pivotal concept that you are failing to grasp in the grander scheme of things that will give you confidence why you should fold this hand.

[Laughingboy]

Well don't keep me in suspense. To which pivotal concept are you referring?

On a related note, can anyone recommend a place to read up on estimating implied odds in NL? I see lots of comments here (e.g. "the type of hand that won't raise you probably won't push later") that essential boil down to implied odds issues.

-S.

[Mouse1949]

I'm also eager to learn the "pivotal concept."

In the meanwhile---with a wad of players in front of you, you are not "defending a blind." Those guys are out there with the intention of hitting the flop, and in aggregate at least they have the best of it. KT must fold.

[Bigdaddydvo]

You'd actually be better off defending w/a hand that's going to give you the right implied odds, like a small pair or suited connector. KTs has too many opportunities to be dominated. Pick another spot.

[sofere]

The "pivotal concept" is the Gap Concept. In a nutshell, you need a better hand to call a raise than you do to for you to raise. With KT, your begging to make the second best hand and payout to the better hand. The only 2 flops i'd be very comfortable playing with that many people that early in the tourney with bad position is AQJ rainbow and KKT.

[Laughingboy]

No? Not 2s 7s 9s? it was suited, after all /images/graemlins/wink.gif j/k.

I am aware of the gap concept. I just wonder when it must be set aside because the pot is large. Perhaps never, or very rarely, early in a NL sng.

In any case, I always knew this was a questionable play. Now I'm convinced it's horrible. Thanks for the help.

I'd still like a to see general treatise on how to consider implied odds in NL, though.

Cheers,
Sean

[Xhiggy]

I'm surprised by all the responses so far.
given the blinds are 10/15, UTG raise to 45, and a handful of callers, (I'll assume starting stack size is 1000), calling the extra 30 isn't a bad move at all. you just have to play it very carefully. you're playing it to hit a flop you can trap on the flop, or for an excellent draw with odds.

the reason I'd perhaps lean to a fold is because the folding option requires less delicate play afterwards, and I most likely won't have detailed reads on all those involved, making it a much harder hand to play.

[deedbr]

With the poor position I would be folding this hand also.

The only "pivotal concept" that I can think of is that those chips would be better served for stealing blinds later on.

Deedbr

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised by all the responses so far.
given the blinds are 10/15, UTG raise to 45, and a handful of callers, (I'll assume starting stack size is 1000), calling the extra 30 isn't a bad move at all. you just have to play it very carefully. you're playing it to hit a flop you can trap on the flop, or for an excellent draw with odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling IS bad...

you're out of position
your hand is easily dominated
the stacks are shallow (don't assume 1000, this is likely a low-buying Party tournament with 800 starting chips)

KT(s) is essentially worthless except as a semi-bluffing/stealing hand in the middle/late stages.