50-100 live

[JMP300z]

Full table an hour in. Table is a bit looser than usual. I pick up TT and raise from early position. An older guy who has taken some bad beats tonight 3 bets from late position and we take the flop heads up. He has been alternating between TAG and LAG.

The flop is 762 rainbow.
I bet out and he calls.

Turn is a 4 putting 2 spades on board.
I bet out again and this time he raises. I make it 3 back to him and he calls fairly quick.

River is another 6. I bet out.

Comments?

[vmacosta]

Is the 6 a 3rd spade? If so I prefer C/C, if not this looks good.

[JMP300z]

sorry no the last six's suit was irrelevant.

[Blackjack]

I like the line.

Good hand

Blackjack

[DcifrThs]

if he raises the river what do you do?

i think its likely he has a AKs or a pair here and may be getting a bit frustrated...it may be a lower non set pair but i dont like calling a raise on the river. but i do like the value bet as he is in a precarious position and you have good initiative and played the hand well.

-Barron

[GreywolfNYC]

I like this line a lot. Judging from the pre-flop action and his quick call of your turn re-raise he might be holding a medium suited Ace, maybe A8 of spades for the flush and gutshot draws. I think your river bet was correct.

[TStoneMBD]

the 3bet on the turn makes no sense. what do you expect him to have that he 3bet you with preflop?

[scdavis0]

How about A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif or A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[TStoneMBD]

oh thats true. i guess he has an overpair here 40% of the time and AK /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif or AQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif the other 60.

[drexah]

and he shows AQ/AK right? maybe mid pair?

[elysium]

hi jmp

pre-flop, with TT in a loose, you are much better off limping in from EP. you will too likely need to flop a set here to give raising better value than limping. very talented players in exotic circumstances can make the raise work, but even then limping has almost equal value.

on the turn you raise to get the fold and make him pay, so it is not a value raise. as we have said, value bets are bets made by players who are expecting to be called, and desire the bet garnered from that call more than they desire taking down the pot right then and there. clearly that is not the case here, so you are not reraising for value on the turn. you need to keep that in mind because i want you to take a look at this river.

you betout. well jmp, that certainly wasn't very bright now was it?

if you do not know what to do jmp,....hmmmm;

if you don't know what to do, jump, think. jump think.

if you don't know what to do, jmp, jump think. got it. attach your hold em cables onto your action in the previous round of the hand, and turn the key. if you didn't value bet in the previous round then do not value bet in the present round, unless you have reason to believe that something has changed that has given your hand value betting status. this way, you will take the correct action for each and every betting decision, and we accomplish this by jump thinking.

[JMP300z]

ok, so maybe its not the most traditional play for TT but heres my logic.

Im not going to get to in depth about the raise from early position here, do you honestly think a limp is correct? Im not going to play timidly with TT just because an overcard can come. Im going to try to narrow the field.

When my opponent calls the flop it could mean anything. Probably overcards that just want to see a turn or an overpair. It could also mean 99 with an outside chance of 88.

The turn card puts 2 spades on the board. Again I lead out and he raises. Normally Id just dump the TT here. However, I think this is just too good a semibluff opportunity and decide to invest the extra bet rather than just abondon ship. He knows I didnt cap preflop and so maybe he thinks he can sieze the initiative here on the turn. When he calls the three bet quickly it confirms my read of the flush draw to some extent.

So when I bet the turn I may not have been value betting or not but when I three bet it I was certainly value betting. If I call the turn I am going to check call the river and lose the same amount as if I 3 bet the turn and fold to a cap. The downside is I lose 1 more bet if he just calls my 3 bet and takes another bet from me on the river.

I will explain my river thinking later.

[ggbman]

I like your line a lot and think your hand is good.

[me454555]

I like check calling the river here in hopes to induce a bluff. His most likely hand is AK or AQ of spades and I think he lays it down on the river. If you check, he might bluff at it.

The other reason for checking is that he may hold an overpair, at which poing he may very well pop you again on the river.

[etizzle]

I doubt he would raise with an overpair he again.

[Gamblor]

when I three bet it I was certainly value betting

What the hell hand do you want to call you in that spot?

A value bet WANTS a call.

Yet, Two high spades you want to fold, an overpair you want to fold, virtually every hand he has besides 88, 99, you want to fold. He is getting correct odds (9+-1) to call your 3-bet with even two high cards and no spade.

You can't possibly be value betting here. You are asking him to fold his +EV call of your reraise.

If he calls, at least you didn't give him infinite odds by only calling the turn.

Again. You want him to fold right there on the turn.

[Kaz The Original]

You fear the runner runner flush?

[PassiveCaller]

I'm kinda shocked here nearly everyone has pretty much agreed with the line in the hand (not that it's necessarily bad) but I think this scenario is much more interesting then this and want to play devils advocate alittle here so I ran some possible scenarios given 3-betting and just calling the turn and their corresponding river situations for what our opponent might do...

Just curious to see if I can get some other opinions here.

If we 3-bet turn:
66,77,22,44 (cap bet river, or call 3-bet c/r river)
AA,KK,QQ,JJ, TT call (call 3-bet, and call river)
88,99 (maybe call, but it's going to be a harder river call)
AJs-AKs, (definitely call, but no action unless J,Q,K, or spade on river)
33,55, (maybe call, maybe fold, but no action on river)
AJo-AKo, (sometimes fold, mostly call, but no action unless they hit a pair)

if we just call turn:
66,77,22,44 (bet if checked to, reraise if bet to)
AA-TT (always will Bet if checked to on river)
88-99 (bet if checked to on river)
AJs-AKs (bet some of the time if checked to if they miss for bluff factor, bet when hit pair, and when hit spade)
33,55 (check behind sometimes, sometimes bet again)
AJo-AKo(bet river if checked to most of the time following through on bluff, bet if hit)

I did this fairly quick so I may have missed some reasonable hand ranges...

[Kaz The Original]

Semantics...

[JMP300z]

shocked? Shocked that they agreed because my line is so bad? Or shocked that most didnt even question it. (some did)

Your range of hands is very flawed. He is not three betting what hands he hit sets with. Also, while it is possible the turn is raised w/ just overs, it is very very unlikely he has AJo...and mostly unlikely he has AQo (unless hes on serious tilt...he was on minor tilt). AKo is still a possibility.

[PassiveCaller]

Like I said I pretty much just listed every possibility, I wasn't trying to zone in on which were most likely. I was aiming more towards trying to get more useful discussion out of this... Given ranging from TAG to LAG and could be on tilt on the hand I didn't want to narrow anything out though. I would agree it's less likely that he has some of those set hands and smaller pairs and AJ, and AQ and that's how we'd get someplace with finding the best way to play this hand..

I just thought this was more interesting then the discussion so far.