Party 15-30: What's the proper river play?

[Jeffage]

Tightish 15 game on Party. I have A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif in the cutoff. Folded to me, I raise and only the big blind calls. The flop is the Q /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. He checks, I bet, he calls. The turn is the 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. He checks, I bet, he calls. The river is the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. He checks, I bet, he raises. Comments? Should I have checked the turn or the river? Results later...

Jeff

[Stork]

I hate these situations. I can't think of a single hand he would check-raise me with here that I can beat, but I usually call anyway because I suck. I would probably check the river here, although its interesting because I feel like I would probably bet the river with AK, even though I really doubt he has a K unless it's KJ.

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I have checked the turn or the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
No and no...and, muck the river without a read. You played this just fine.

[roy_miami]

I think the question of betting or checking here is totally dependent on the type of player in the BB. If its a lunatic, bet and call the raise. If its a loose passive, bet fold to the raise. Anything in between and no reads I think I would usually just check behind here unless I had been running over the table showing down big hand after big hand knowing they will have to have the goods to checkraise me.

[James282]

You obviously have to bet the river here. And almost always you need to fold to the raise. I'd never check behind on party here.
-James

[gamblore99]

I think its an easy fold. then again I also think the river bet is bad, so what do i know.

speaking of the river bet, can someone explain to me why its obvious?

Possible calls that you beat
QT-Q8s, JT, 88-JJ, though I think there is a good chance the pocket pairs, as well as JT will not call you.

Hands that beat you KQ-K8, QJ.

From this very limited analysis, i would say the river bet is bad idea. someone care to help me out?

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
I think its an easy fold. then again I also think the river bet is bad, so what do i know.

speaking of the river bet, can someone explain to me why its obvious?

Possible calls that you beat
QT-Q8s, JT, 88-JJ, though I think there is a good chance the pocket pairs, as well as JT will not call you.

Hands that beat you KQ-K8, QJ.

From this very limited analysis, i would say the river bet is bad idea. someone care to help me out?

[/ QUOTE ]

You bet the river because he has something he wants to call with. Heads up in a blind war the BB will call with as little as bottom pair. Really I see it often at showdown, "I have a pair". Well that's nice I have a Q, followed by a turbo muck.

Heads up with position you have to bet second pair top kicker for value.

[URMeowed]

You obviously do not play much on Party. My thinking is just the opposite in that without a read on the BB, it's an automatic call. What you all don't understand is Party Poker is not real poker. Nowhere else do you have the biggest collection of donks 24/7. You have players that will check/bet/call/raise/fold just because it's Wednesday. So many of them have no clue how to play well THEN they have the audacity to critique another donks...LOL. PURE COMEDY. You just cannot muck on the river for one bet if you have a sensible hand and second pair nut kicker qualifies as a sensible hand. On top of that, the more tricky players (read canadian, ljubljana or any other eurodonk) will see you are capable of making that "tough" laydown and you will start seeing a barrage of nonsensical bets, raises and check raises. If you pride yourself on making these types of laydowns, Party is not the site for you. But what do I know, I'm just a cat. Meow.

[TStoneMBD]

if you are unsure of how to play against a raise on the river, then this is a check. if you know what to do then bet.

[afish]

You have to bet the turn to charge a possible draw. I'd probably check the river, but I'd definitely pay off a check raise here. He could be raising with a busted flush draw.

[Jeffage]

Thanks for the responses. I folded to his checkraise on the end. I just figured I would get called by worse hands on Party, but it would take a particularly tricky/aggro opponent to checkraise bluff the river here. It appears I have a hand I like so I don't think my opponent would checkraise a hand I beat (I easily could have AK, AQ, AA, a set, etc...if I had a hand like JJ, I'd prob check the river and my opponent should know this...my bet makes it seem I have a King and he's saying he can beat that).

My guess is he hit a hand like QJ or a gutshot like A10. More responses appreciated.

Jeff

[rwinns]

Bet the turn, check the river

[steveyz]

If my read on BB is that he's tightish, I would have checked through the river. Given that you bet and he c/r'ed, I'd lay it down. He has at least two pair here.

[JeffO]

You have no reason to believe your not ahead on the river, so I bet it every time. Your in a steal situation and BB will call you down with any piece of it.

After your check raised on the river are you good here 1 in 6 times? Maybe, maybe not but I think I make the crying call against most. Maybe that's a leak in my game.

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think its an easy fold. then again I also think the river bet is bad, so what do i know.

speaking of the river bet, can someone explain to me why its obvious?

Possible calls that you beat
QT-Q8s, JT, 88-JJ, though I think there is a good chance the pocket pairs, as well as JT will not call you.

Hands that beat you KQ-K8, QJ.

From this very limited analysis, i would say the river bet is bad idea. someone care to help me out?

[/ QUOTE ]

You bet the river because he has something he wants to call with. Heads up in a blind war the BB will call with as little as bottom pair. Really I see it often at showdown, "I have a pair". Well that's nice I have a Q, followed by a turbo muck.

Heads up with position you have to bet second pair top kicker for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey slavic, Thanks for the great response. I guess one of the things I'm having troube with, is that just abut any piece of the board is better than what you have, and a Check Raise puts you to a very difficult decision. I think the times that Im ahead are very few, and the times that Im behind, I will get checkraised a fair amount of the time.

I guess you fold when checkraised?

[Levi King]

This is my experience as well.

If you can't call a check raise on the river, then check behind.

I bet and call the raise and expect to win enough to make it profitable.

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think its an easy fold. then again I also think the river bet is bad, so what do i know.

speaking of the river bet, can someone explain to me why its obvious?

Possible calls that you beat
QT-Q8s, JT, 88-JJ, though I think there is a good chance the pocket pairs, as well as JT will not call you.

Hands that beat you KQ-K8, QJ.

From this very limited analysis, i would say the river bet is bad idea. someone care to help me out?

[/ QUOTE ]

You bet the river because he has something he wants to call with. Heads up in a blind war the BB will call with as little as bottom pair. Really I see it often at showdown, "I have a pair". Well that's nice I have a Q, followed by a turbo muck.

Heads up with position you have to bet second pair top kicker for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey slavic, Thanks for the great response. I guess one of the things I'm having troube with, is that just abut any piece of the board is better than what you have, and a Check Raise puts you to a very difficult decision. I think the times that Im ahead are very few, and the times that Im behind, I will get checkraised a fair amount of the time.

I guess you fold when checkraised?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time yes.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
but it would take a particularly tricky/aggro opponent to checkraise bluff the river here.

[/ QUOTE ]


I disagree.
There are some semi-maniacs who like to do this just because they think they are clever and tricky.

On your hand I would fold the river against most opponents.
But against some of the non-straightforward donkey-maniacs of the 15/30 universe I think you still have to call down.


Actually, when I was a total beginner and didn't know whether a flush beat a full-house or vice-versa I would LOVE to bluff people out of pots on the river when I had nothing because I thought it was a smart move.
I lost a lot in those days BTW!!

But the point is that it doesn't take a super-sophisticated player to bluff on the river. There are some real donkeys that love to do it.


Anyway, it is read dependant of course....making crying-calls all day long just sets yourself up for some bad losses. Other times you need to use good judgement.


this hand I played tonight involved a player who was 50/9 in 22 hands at my table. It is not shown for how my call on the river because that is standard

....it is shown more to give an indication of the type of stuff that can actually be bluff-raised with by certain players.

this isn't a C/R....but I've seen similar situations where it was C/R'ed by mostly unsophisticated players when the scare-card hit.
Just food for thought.



I have QQ in CO.
MP raises, I 3-bet, Button calls, MP calls.

3 player to the flop -
Q74r (1 heart)

MP checks, I bet, Button raises, MP folds, I 3-bet, MP calls

Turn -
Kh

I bet. button calls.

River -
3h (3rd heart)

I bet. Button Raises. I call.


Button shows Jh, Td and has nothing.
His PF call, raise on the flop and raise on the river were all pretty bad.

However, I think some players here might play AQs roughly the same way as I played the QQ and then might fold to the raise on the river...especially if the river card was Jh or another K instead of 3h.

And obviously this guy that I played against had no idea that I had QQ or AQ or what when he tried this.

Anyway....offered as food for thought.
Making good folds are necessary (as I am still very much in the process of learning and figuring out) but NEVER underestimate the power of the 15/30 Party-Donkeys!!