30/60 AJh big pot

[Schneids]

30/60 online, 5-minutes into session, full 10-handed table. I don't know much about the specific players but I do know it's a great table, overall.

UTG and UTG+1 limp, I am next and raise AhJh. Folded to CO who calls, button calls, SB calls, BB 3-bets, both limpers call, I call, CO caps, all others call.

Flop (28SB): Jc 8d 4d.

SB, BB, and UTG check, UTG+1 bets, I raise (questionable...), CO calls, button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, I call, CO calls, button calls, BB calls.

Turn (23BB): 9h

BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, I raise, CO folds, button folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

River (27BB): 5h.

UTG checks, I bet.

I am rusty with large multiway pots since I don't play much full table how did I do?

[Thomsen]

I dont understand the riverbet

[Rubeskies]

Can you explain your turn raise?

Was it to try and get people with 4 and 5 outers to fold incorrectly? Because it looks like you're behind and you can't really protect your hand if you are. Shouldn't you be trying to get to a cheap showdown/ hit your 5 outer?

[DangerGoodson]

I disagree, I think the river play is a superior value bet.

[vmacosta]

What a crazy hand. When PF and F craziness like this happens I usually assume I'm badly beat and call down the turn and river anyway. I like the flop raise though. I don't like the river bet since I cant fold to a C/R and am usually badly beaten.

[Josh Chud]

in multiway pots you have to realize that your odds of winning are greatly decreased w/ just a pair. the BB may have a high-wired pair or AK suited. And the result of the limp/callers who stuck around to the river are more than likely holding the following hands: JT, J9, J8, QT, QJ, KJ, 67. You are badly losing to 4 of the 6 hands i mentioned. when the UTG bet i wouldn't be surprised to hear he was holding T7 and was afraid you had QT so didnt want to reraise you. T9, T8, T7, are all hands w/ positive EV if they are suited and best played against a large field. and 2 of those hands are beating you too.

[Michael Davis]

T9s, T8s, and T7s are not positive EV UTG except maybe rarely the first. Even in a "good" game, there is very little chance UTG will show up with T7. The reasonable hands for him to be holding here are sets of 8s and 4s, but given that he didn't reraise the turn against a guy who didn't cap preflop, the river is a clear value bet as his most likely holdings are lesser jacks. Sure, maybe he's an idiot and he fears triple jacks, but those are the breaks. If he has this mentality he's not raising the river. His most likely holdings are KJ, QJ, JT, and T9, all of which Schneids beats.

I don't see how the fact that one pair is a shaky holding in a large multiway pot is even relevant.

-Michael

[Schneids]

Thank you Michael. I didn't post the hand for thoughts about the river bet, I'm really surprised that is what people are discussing. IMO the flop and turn are the more interesting streets and ones I need to know if I played optimally.

[goofball]

because you only called his 3bet on the flop the turn and river play is good.

i would cap the flop, if he bets into you anway AFTER you've capped the flop you can start worryign about 88 and 44.

[slavic]

Hi Schneids -

Nice to see you breaking from the normal short handed stuff. It's a big pot from the getgo so you know you have to do everything you can to win it. When presented the opportunity to put in the double bet on the flop, I take it. Not many hands will folds but even if only the true trash folds you win. The turn is perfect.

The river has me thinking though. UTG actually played his hand fairly strong and knowing something more about him would be nice. The turn raise may slow down as much as a weak set just because of the board texture (though it shouldn't comming from you). It could also be that his flush never formed, but he felt compelled to bet the turn, a weaker jack is possible, but is two pair? Homeboy has to be fairly loose to have two pair.

Betting doesn't look bad at all, it would be a shame to not collect from KJd, JTd, QJd. Now if he has 67d well that just sucks.

[payupsucka]

I like the turn raise, especially if he just calls. Most of the time you will get this pot heads up with this raise wich makes it +EV. I may consider checking the river,otherwise I think it was well played.

[DcifrThs]

how would you play this if you had QQ? KK? AA?

basically, its all the same. and thats the point. the bigger the pot gets on the flop (As it is now) the more you have to take non-conventional means to win it.

sometimes i give up a few bets on the flop to get people to fold the turn even if they are correct to do so. in fact, i'll post a hand after i respond to this about the topic. but basically you played it perfectly IMO.

the flop initial raise is only questionable if the pot is already massive and you know you can raise the turn, otherwise you must raise the flop. here though, they guy who 3bet is in the best position fo ryou to raise the turn. if you cap then its one bet to call on the turn after he checks to you.

i think this is pretty straightforward yet vastly underutilized. most poeple just call the turn here and that is very wrong IMO. the river, given his play, looks like a weak 2pair or worse jack. i think its close. but i think a bet is OK and if worse only slightly so.

i like the whole hand schneids.

-Barron

[Justin A]

I'd probably wait until the turn to raise, but it worked out perfectly for you since he 3bet and led the turn anyways. I think you have to raise the turn there. Nice hand.

Justin A

[CanIPlay]

I read it as a flush draw by UTG. It is eady to say cap the flop now but that would be best. Great turn raise. I bet the river. BB had A-K or A-Q.

[Schneids]

He folded.

[me454555]

I call the river and hope to raise the turn. I don't think you can do much to protect your hand on the flop and by calling, you can get more info about other hands.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i don't understand why you guys wouldn't bet this river.

also i love the turn raise.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hi Scheids,

The flop raise is questionable. With a pot this big, no AK or AQ or any gutshot is going away for that matter. Then again the is already big so might as well drive it bigger for value.

The turn raise I do like and here is why: You force any A-x or K-x card out which significantly improves your chances of winning. You may also force out low end gutshots and any smaller pairs out. You are also protecting is what is likely the best hand. It is a must raise in this situation.


Lawrence

[sublime]

hey man-

i think waiting till the turn to raise here would be the best play, your flop raise doesnt accomplish much here. although in the heat of action i tend to raise at the first chance also /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

the river bet seems rather routine.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop raise is questionable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I've decided I don't like my flop raise and got lucky that UTG had flop checkraise plans... Yeah, most of the time I think I'll raise on the flop and get checked to on the turn and everyone calls one more bet and sees a river.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The turn raise I do like and here is why: You force any A-x

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow I was going to ask if I really care if two-out hands see the river but then realized yes the pot is big enough I want them out. Crazy.



Another thought that was running through my head on this flop was 'if it gets checked to me should I check?' I'm pretty sure betting is better by a slight margin but is it even close? Would checking become correct yet with AA? Yeah I've read the situation in one of the 2+2 books where they advise checking behind with AA in a large pot.

[Paluka]

I actually think you played the hand fine.