Long term EV of playing tough tables

[Ghazban]

I've started playing in a 1/2 blind no-limit home game that's got a pretty tough lineup. Its far more difficult to beat than the 1/2 at Foxwoods I regularly play (which is basically nutpeddling ABC poker) or the low-stakes online games I play (more nutpeddling).

I don't have the bankroll to move up to the 5/5 NL game at Foxwoods (the next highest NL game they spread) so I view this home game as a chance to actually play poker at a higher level without investing a larger amount of money. I've only played there 3 times now and I'm fairly certain I can't get the same kind of hourly rate there as I can get at the casino game. I talked to another 2+2er who has played this game and he'd rather not play it as his hourly rate playing the Party $200 is much higher.

Now from my perspective, I feel that, while playing this game might be lower EV (or even -EV) for me than my usual games, the experience and the things I learn by playing other good players are things that, in the long run, will make me a better overall player, thereby making my expectation for bigger games in the future higher (as I'll be further along the learning curve than if I just jumped up from the small games).

Is there any merit to this or am I just rationalizing my subpar results?

[ACW]

I think it's entirely prudent to devote a percentage of your winnings to investment in improving your game.
This could come from buying books, software, etc. or it could come from playing a tough game you expect to lose at, but which will provide you with the experience to improve.
Just be aware that that is what you are doing.

[dogmeat]

You can't improve by just nut peddling small games where the players are not very good. Play this "real" game and analyse every play and every player. You will benefit much more in the long run than playing elsewhere.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't improve by just nut peddling small games where the players are not very good. Play this "real" game and analyse every play and every player. You will benefit much more in the long run than playing elsewhere.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for the validation /images/graemlins/grin.gif Even in just 3 sessions there, I've faced more tough decisions than in months of 1/2 casino play. I've also seen a lot more "moves" than in any other game I've played/seen this small.

[TStoneMBD]

making money should not be your first priority, but your second. getting better should be #1. the money will flow once you get your priorities straight. as long as youre not losing in the tougher game then you should play there regularly. it may be valuable to you to set aside a certain # of hours a week that you dedicate to getting better at poker. if say for instance you play 20hours of poker a week, i recommend that you dedicate at least 10 to learning. you can spend that 10 hours reading books, in the forum or playing in the more challenging game. if you play 20 hours of poker a week and dont have time to add to your schedule for learning, then you should cut down to 14 hours of play, and 7 hours of learn.

[Stork]

I think your overlooking the fact that playing in a tougher game does not necessarily make you a better player. It's not that simple as just watching how a player plays a hand and then a light bulb clicks. Many hands won't go to showdown, and even the ones that do probably won't teach you that much. Unless you are looking over the shoulder of one of the better players or actually having him explain his thinking to you, it's not going to be that easy to improve merely by playing in that game.

[TStoneMBD]

thhat is simply untrue stork. by playing with better players it pushes yourself to think on deeper levels. you have to be aware of so many more variables when up against good players in comparison to fish. were not talking about learning tricks and fundamentals from other players, were talking about challenging yourself and your abilities. there will also be many more hands when playing against good players that force him into difficult decisions, which will make good posts on these forums which he will learn from.

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you are looking over the shoulder of one of the better players or actually having him explain his thinking to you, it's not going to be that easy to improve merely by playing in that game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true to some extent but what you overlook is the chance to think on different levels. Playing with fish and thinking "what does he think I think he has, what does he think i think he thinks i have and therefore what should my move be," goes wasted and more often than not leads to the wrong play. Straightforward play against fish is typically optimum strategy and levels of thinking rarely get past "what do i have, what does he have." Playing in a game with thinking players allows you to think aswell and, in thinking and working out the logic of the game at a higher level, one will almost certainly improve.

-Brad

[Mike]

I agee that just going to a tougher game will not help some players. But in this case taking on a tougher game with intent kind of sheds a new light on it? If a player doesn't have a valid reason for playing tougher games there is no point in changing to that game.

Being willing to lose chips to learn was a fair trade off for me, so I imagine it would be for others too. Books really do not go into things you may wish to learn while you will learn much from good players whether they want to teach you or not if you put forth the effort and risk a few chips.