Bet size in MTT

[ntg816]

I would like to hear the opinion of other players. What seems to be the most effective in terms of a "normal" betting /raising strategy?

For example, some players like to open with a 3xBB raise, with an extra BB for every limper. Some like to bet the pot. I know it is situationally driven, but I can see convincing arguments both ways here.

Also, after the flop, is it more effective to bet the pot rather than trying to tailor your bet to the player, your hand etc.? I think by betting or raising the pot, you make it more difficult for your opponents to get a read on you.

Any thoughts anyone might have on this would be greatly appreciated.

[JaBlue]

There are a lot of considerations about bet size and it is taken for granted on this forum that the size of the bet really matters. Many players swear by the pot-sized bet and will only use it. Personally, I feel a lot differently.

There isn't any one way to cover everything, so instead I'll give you the factors that I consider when thinking about what bet size is appropriate in each situation.

1) stack size. Who's in the pot, how big is there stack, how big is mine? Often as a short stack you will be forced to go all in preflop. This is a choice in bet size.

2) Who am I playing against? Will a half-pot bet accomplish a bluff as often against him as a full-pot bet? Will a weak lead (a smallish bet) get him to come over the top of me? Experiment with trying to manipulate players with your bet sizes. See how it goes - its the only way to learn.

3) VERY IMPORTANT: am I giving anything away? If I bet half the pot only when I'm weak, I'm very easy to read and after a few bets my opponents will notice this. Consider all of the hands that you'd bet whatever bet-size you're using. I will often valuebet at 1/2 the pot and I will also bluff at this size. This means that I'm not easy to read, and the ultimate consequence is that I give draws better (although still incorrect) odds when I have a hand and I get a better price when I bluff.

With all of this said, the most important factors to consider are stack size and tournament stage. With experience you should learn how these affect your bet size choices.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to hear the opinion of other players. What seems to be the most effective in terms of a "normal" betting /raising strategy?

For example, some players like to open with a 3xBB raise, with an extra BB for every limper. Some like to bet the pot. I know it is situationally driven, but I can see convincing arguments both ways here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Harrington has some pretty good stuff on this. Basically, he advocates 3-5 bb with a definite eye toward varying your play. I think that hard rules would fly in the face of this good advice, so you gotta mix it up.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, after the flop, is it more effective to bet the pot rather than trying to tailor your bet to the player, your hand etc.? I think by betting or raising the pot, you make it more difficult for your opponents to get a read on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cloutier has some good stuff on this (if not in some other areas). Granted, this comes from the PL section of his book, but it still applies. He advocates a pot-sized bet every time if your bet will be anywhere near the vicinity of the pot. Obviously, this is to avoid anyone getting a read on your tendencies.

If this advice is not suitable to your palate (which would be understandable), you can devise your own post-flop device to determine the size of your bet.

Funny, Harrington and Cloutier seem to contradict one another, but both can certainly be understood to be relatively correct, even used together.

Poker.

EDIT: Obviously, stack size is a huge consideration. It sounded like your question was pertaining to early stages with deep stacks all around.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
He advocates a pot-sized bet every time if your bet will be anywhere near the vicinity of the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Since reading Harrington (and re-reading, and re-reading...) I have changed my continuation bet to 1/2-2/3 pot depending on the flop texture. Many posters here advocate this as well.

I have found I still get as many folds as when I made pot-sized continuaton bets, but when I get played back at with a marginal holding, its easier to get away from (don't feel as pot stuck, especially early in a tourney), and I'm not damaging my stack as much when I have to fold.

Not saying you're wrong, I just have benefitted from altering my continutation bet size (bet on the flop after being the PF raiser), changing it from pot sized to 1/2-2/3 pot.

If the board is really draw heavy (flush and straight) and my stack is fairly deep, I will protect my hand with a pot sized bet (or even overbet if the situation warrants) to make sure the message is clear to my competitors that they must pay to play.

Regards,
Woodguy

[schwza]

my understanding of varying your preflop bet sizes is this...

it's a reasonable strategy to not vary your bet size based on the cards in your hand (but maybe on position, number of limpers, etc). you avoid tipping opponents off preflop, which would obviously be a disaster.

however, if you're good and you're confident you can properly randomize your play to avoid giving too much away, you can gain an extra edge by tailoring the raise size to the cards in your hand, a la harrington.

personally, in a regular tournament i raise a consistent amount at each level (starting at ~6 bb's at level 1 and gradually moving down to 3 bb's when the blinds are 50/100, and sometimes lower) regardless of my cards b/c i'm paranoid about not randomizing well. (this from a guy who lost 7 consecutive ro-shams by throwing scissor first... and i never would've realized if my friend hadn't told me).

during a rebuy period i'll tailor my bet to my hand (e.g., smaller for AA/KK than for JJ) because i doubt anyone's paying attention and b/c it only lasts an hour.

[ntg816]

Thanks for your help. There seems to be a lot of variety in your replies. I worry about giving something away by the size of my bets. Of course, I think of my bets as totally transparent, but I have a biased opinion since I actually know my cards.

I wasn't referring to any particular time in a tournament, whether it be the beginning, middle, or end, but I do see where that plays a factor. I guess I was asking when playing against other players with similar stacks, even if it is later in a tournament. I find myself much more uncomfortable calling a pot sized bet from a simliar stack than a smaller bet, even if it is still half the pot.

I guess I am trying to reverse my apprehension and put it on the other player with the pot sized bet. And by the way, I have read Cloutier's book about the pot sized bet, that is where the basis of this question comes from.

[Potowame]

I agree with Woodguy here. I have change to the same style of post flop betting, and it is very effective.

You are still playing within FTOP , and giving drawing hands bads odds to draw at. But, they will call more often to a 1/2 2/3 size bet than a pot size bet. You really want a flush draw /str8 draw/ lower Kicker calling. Once you get over the fear of this guy is going to draw out on me you will be able to accumulate more chips by letting them bleed off to you with incorrect odds.

[Robrizob]

If memory serves me correctly, I think TJ advocated the pot-size bet all of the time in pot-limit, not no-limit.