Pushing too hard against the maniacs

[MicroBob]

Lots of questionable crap here.
Let me have it. I need to hear it.

BB in this hand is 62/31/7 maniac after only 10 hands. New to the table but has already gotten pretty far out of line.

The MP1 is 62/15/2.3 after 84 hds.


I have T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in SB


UTG calls, MP1 (62/15) calls, MP2 raises, I call, BB calls, UTG calls and MP1 calls

5 players to the flop for 10SB -

6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif


I check, BB bets, everyone calls, I C/R, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds

Turn - (4 players)
2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, BB raises, UTG folds, MP1 calls (hesitantly), I 3-bet!!!, BB caps, MP1 calls (hesitantly again), I call

river -
2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, BB bets, MP1 folds, I call


Pre-flop is obviously debateable (or just plain bad...no debate necessary some might say).
turn 3-bet with crappy flush seemed incorrect. But slowing down with a flush against a couple of VP-60'ers struck me as more incorrect so I pushed it.


But he capped it AND the river just happens to pair-up so I'm in check-call mode.

[DeeJ]

It's the old "fold preflop" from me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just because there's one maniac in doesn't mean that the other players have poor hands when they raise. If they are smart they know they still have to have the best hand. In your lousy position I don't think you're good often anywhere near often enough to call. (and I presume this is a $20 call @ 15/30 with 10 players?)

However, the flop is great, I check-call here and I'm not unhappy if the pot grows a bit either. Turn & river I play the same.

[TStoneMBD]

i think its standard. bb doesnt necessarily have to have a flush here to raise you. it could even be a smaller flush. 3betting is reasonable with the coldcaller in the middle. he could easily have the Ad and so raising protects your hand.

[MicroBob]

Yes....it's 15/30 and is 9 handed I think.

So I'm cold-calling for $20 here which I think might be border-line. I almost folded but I thought there was a good chance BB would tag along and that would make it barely worthwhile.


With a couple more players in and if UTG did the raising (and thus BB will be closing the betting) then I think playing the T8s is okay.

As it is, I probably should have mucked it PF.


AS TStone said - I was thinking of protecting when I 3-bet and thought there was enough chance they would call with worse-hands (top-pair even).
Getting capped really snapped me to attention though.

[Brainwalter]

Do you call down after the turn raise, if bb is unknown?

[MicroBob]

Good question.

I would call down here against a tighter player who has raises I respect.


Against a total unknown with ZERO read I think I still re-raise, cross my fingers, and hope there's value in that.


But maybe just calling here and checking out the river (hoping it doesn't 4-flush) would be prudent.

The higher single-diamond draws scare me plus the possibility that I'm already losing to a higher flush here.
Am I just seeing monsters in the closet?


Oh hell...I've been up all night and am too tired to figure it out now and I'm going to bed.

I'm done thinking...you guys figure it out and tell me what the answer is.
It's easier that way.

[TStoneMBD]

if you guys are wondering if this hand has to be shown down, then the answer is definitely. the only way you are going to fold this hand somewhere along the lines is if the other player in the hand wakes up and starts raising on the river after a scare card hits.

[Brainwalter]

That's why I ask, is I would play it the same against unknown BB, but that might be wrong. It certainly seems right against a maniac.

[stoxtrader]

well played.

[Lawrence Ng]

Against such a LAG, I would have bet the river and called a raise. One of these guys has the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif obviously, but it doesn't look like flush over over flush the way it played out.

Lawrence

[sublime]

bob-

my only problem with the preflop play is that you are calling because you have a hand that will play good in large multiway pots and you have a discount, which is fine. but you are in a tough spot due to your relative position. you can bet a flush draw on the flop and put the field in a precarios position i guess, but you will often flop hands that you want to see the turn for one bet only.

on the flop i would have led out for value or just check called like you did (which is part of the problem of calling preflop it hinders your flop play), and taken it from there. against these guys(usual 15/30) not 3-betting the turn is a crime.

[IndieMatty]

I don't mind the pre-flop call. I think it's automatic in this game.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
but you are in a tough spot due to your relative position.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree.

And more-over, there are enough players left to call the raise that it feels dubious. If it's just BB closing the action then I certainly feel better.


[ QUOTE ]
or just check called like you did

[/ QUOTE ]


I disagree.

I didn't check-call here.
I check-raised for value on the flop which I thought was the direction to take.



Thanks for the input everyone.


In the actual hand:
My oponnent had 92s or 93s for the lower flush and my T8s held up.

I agree that betting the river and calling a raise could have been the better way to go.

I felt like I wimped-out by check-calling...but it was partly prompted by the board-pairing. It's not a TRUE scare card....but it's not a true blank either because there was a small chance on the turn that I was ahead of a set.

I guess it's just instinctive.
I have a flush, and the board pairs, so I slow-down.

[bicyclekick]

I like the way you played it including the pre-flop call.

Nice hand.