Lennox Lewis and Bruce Lee

[James282]

Gonores' post reminded me of a conversation I've had with my friends in a very similar vein. We've had the little kids talk but not in the same depth that he has. The question for you all is:

How many 2+2ers would it take to beat up Lennox Lewis and Bruce Lee at the same time in their fighting peaks? Assume the 2+2ers are selected at random, and it is required to have 100 posts to be chosen. These 2+2ers would have a month to prepare with an unlimited bankroll with which to do so.
-James

EDIT: As a further question, is this number higher or lower than the number of 5 year olds the average 2+2er could take down in gonores' scenario?

[hoyaboy1]

The swarm and smother is a powerful fighting technique.

[mmbt0ne]

If my team can get Sponger and his guns, I'm thinking 5 tops.

[IggyWH]

As long as this isn't a The Karate Kid movie where they all stand around and only attack 1 at a time, 3 or 4 could easily do the job.

[James282]

You realize it's both of them at the same time, right?
-James

[IggyWH]

[ QUOTE ]
You realize it's both of them at the same time, right?
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, okay...

I'll say 8 then. Since Lennox is just power, 3 guys can occupy him easily. Bruce might need some more to tame him so we'll stick 5 on him.

[Alobar]

lennox is a pussy (and always has been) so bruce lee is the much harder guy to take down. Still lennox is freaking huge, so at least 5 guys rushing him at once. Lee, oh man, I dunno....8 or 9 guys mob rushing him? Depends on if its open space or a tight little ring. I say at least 15 total for the both of them

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
lennox is a pussy (and always has been) so bruce lee is the much harder guy to take down. Still lennox is freaking huge, so at least 5 guys rushing him at once. Lee, oh man, I dunno....8 or 9 guys mob rushing him? Depends on if its open space or a tight little ring. I say at least 15 total for the both of them

[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt that Lee is much much tougher. But I mean really. Lennox punches any of us once, anywhere, and we die.
-James

[JTrout]

count me out.

[pshreck]

Bruce Lee would be jumping off our heads and throwing one of us into a group of the rest, a la Matrix:Reloaded.

I have to ask this question: Do we have time to organize/prepare for strategy?

You guys also aren't factoring the factor of fear... how many of you are willing to come even close to getting punched in the mouth by Lee or Lewis.

Would our adrenaline be at the level of normal fight, like when we actually hate someone?

These are serious questions pertaining to the situation...

[IggyWH]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lennox is a pussy (and always has been) so bruce lee is the much harder guy to take down. Still lennox is freaking huge, so at least 5 guys rushing him at once. Lee, oh man, I dunno....8 or 9 guys mob rushing him? Depends on if its open space or a tight little ring. I say at least 15 total for the both of them

[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt that Lee is much much tougher. But I mean really. Lennox punches any of us once, anywhere, and we die.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking with Lennox a good way to go at him would be 2 guys distract him while the third gets behind him. Once the third guy is in position, the other 2 get low and bull-rush him. The thrid guy gets low to give them something to flip Lennox over. He wouldn't be able to get in a good shot and once he's down, you just pounce on him. He'll have no power behind his punches really while on his back.

I think Bruce would be best just everyone swarming him from opposite directions. He'll catch a couple people but the others will be able to swarm him and get him down to the ground.

No matter who you are, if you're fighting a mob and they get you on the ground, you're phucked.

[mmbt0ne]

My friends and I decided that it would take 5 of us to definitely take Suge Knight in a fight. And even then we were accounting for 2 fatalities. Lewis would destory at least 4 2+2ers I'm thinking. Of course, this depends on the stipulations of the fight. In ours, everyone had to start out facing each other, so we'd have to run around Suge in order to get some sort of full circle attack.

[IggyWH]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys also aren't factoring the factor of fear... how many of you are willing to come even close to getting punched in the mouth by Lee or Lewis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the 5 year old thread... fear is not a factor.

[Reef]

You guys have obviously not seen any Bruce Lee movies where he takes out a room full of martial arts students. Keep in mind that he had to tone down his "choreagraphy" for movies since his real life fighting was too fast/powerful/effective

[nothumb]

I don't know you guys, I bet most of you can't fight. No offense, but most people can't fight, and most people on the internet are more sedentary than average (as are poker players).

That said, if it was 20 people more or less like me I'd say we could do it, but it would be close. Taking the average guy I'd want more like 30.

NT

[hoyaboy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You guys also aren't factoring the factor of fear... how many of you are willing to come even close to getting punched in the mouth by Lee or Lewis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the 5 year old thread... fear is not a factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shut up Rogan

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I don't know you guys, I bet most of you can't fight. No offense, but most people can't fight, and most people on the internet are more sedentary than average (as are poker players).

That said, if it was 20 people more or less like me I'd say we could do it, but it would be close. Taking the average guy I'd want more like 30.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

This is about what I'm thinking. Maybe 20 of you could get the job done, definitely not less than 30 of me though. Bruce Lee is a beast, and Lewis is a one hit kill.

[nothumb]

After thinking about this a little, I'd like to change my answer to the same one john nickle used in his response to the five-year-olds thread: 'all of them.'

NT

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
After thinking about this a little, I'd like to change my answer to the same one john nickle used in his response to the five-year-olds thread: 'all of them.'

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that "all of them" is absurd here. The only real drawback for Lewis is that he'd eventually break both of his hands on human skulls. As for Lee, I think you'd have to keep pouring mobs of people on him til he passed out from exhaustion. I suppose that would happen with Lewis also, but I think his hands would break first unless he focused on midsection shots.
-James

[oddjob]

[ QUOTE ]
Lennox punches any of us once, anywhere, and we die.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

this was so damn funny, yet so damn true. no way 3 avg. people could take lennox. i've seen a 150 lb guy who knew how to fight take on 5 skinheads, who were raised to fight.

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After thinking about this a little, I'd like to change my answer to the same one john nickle used in his response to the five-year-olds thread: 'all of them.'

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally believe Bruce Lee is a MUCH tougher mofo than Lewis (and could therefore kick his ass). 2+2ers would not land more than a few akward/misguided blows on Lee. Lennox would submit to the power of the mob while Lee's speed/agility would allow him to take out THOUSANDS of us. He trained like a madman and I wouldn't be surprised to have him last a marathon 24+ hrs taking out 2+2ers

I don't think that "all of them" is absurd here. The only real drawback for Lewis is that he'd eventually break both of his hands on human skulls. As for Lee, I think you'd have to keep pouring mobs of people on him til he passed out from exhaustion. I suppose that would happen with Lewis also, but I think his hands would break first unless he focused on midsection shots.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

[mmbt0ne]

Lewis is at a disadvantage though, because his danger is limited to above the waist. If you get a skilled tackler (Sup Bro?) to dive at his ankles and do some sort of alligator death roll manuever, he's on the ground and done for assuming there are more than 5 people around to stomp him.

Lee would make a mockery of all challengers. And, if Lee helped Lewis out and took on all his attackers when Lewis was on the ground, the number could get HUGE real quick.

[Tron]

Unfortunately, Sup Bro doesn't have over 100 posts. Hopefully we can make an exception.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
Lewis is at a disadvantage though, because his danger is limited to above the waist. If you get a skilled tackler (Sup Bro?) to dive at his ankles and do some sort of alligator death roll manuever, he's on the ground and done for assuming there are more than 5 people around to stomp him.

Lee would make a mockery of all challengers. And, if Lee helped Lewis out and took on all his attackers when Lewis was on the ground, the number could get HUGE real quick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strategy for us is emerging here. We take Lewis down hoping Lee comes to his aid, try and drag Bruce down and then stomp 'em both.

We still need like 50+ guys to do this. Having an enclosed space is important. Taking down Lewis is the easy part.

NT

[Boris]

The problem is that there is a huge moral hazard risk from the 2+2 team. It's obvious that there needs to be, at a minimum, 13 2+2ers who are willing to take one for the team and get knocked the fck out.

I don't know about you but my plan is to sit back until Bruce and Lennox get knocked down. Then I'll jump in and try to smash some heads.

[hoyaboy1]

This isn't a movie. Lee could take out thousands of us? You kidding me? The average 2+2er is probably a worse fighter than the average male, but 10 and a max of 15 could easily swarm Lee, drag him to the ground, and finish him.

People have this warped idea that Lee is 100 times tougher than anyone else that has ever existed. It's a joke. There is a reason that kung fu/karate guys aren't elite MMA fighters, and its because they are easily taken down.

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't a movie. Lee could take out thousands of us? You kidding me? The average 2+2er is probably a worse fighter than the average male, but 10 and a max of 15 could easily swarm Lee, drag him to the ground, and finish him.

People have this warped idea that Lee is 100 times tougher than anyone else that has ever existed. It's a joke. There is a reason that kung fu/karate guys aren't elite MMA fighters, and its because they are easily taken down.

[/ QUOTE ]

My friend, you are wrong. He is a legend for a reason

[invast]

[ QUOTE ]

My friend, you are wrong. He is a legend for a reason

[/ QUOTE ]
Ya... he did movies.
I think a better fight scenerio would be 2+2ers vs Frank Mir and Randy Couture

[Michael Emery]

You guys are making far too much of Bruce Lee. You do realize he was like 5"7 and 140 lbs right? Thats like my little sisters size. Ten decent guys mob rush him and I'd make him the underdog. He has a background in boxing and as everyone knows is remembered as the worlds best martial artist. But he was not a ground fighter. Having our group rush him in all directions, shooting at his knees until we took him to the ground would be the gameplan. People are forgetting how HUGE it would be to have a good wrestler(s) in our 2+2 group since our gameplan for both opponents would include taking them to the ground.

Mike Emery

[invast]

Ya.. but then the wrestlers would have to agree to run in first and have a good chance of getting [censored] up.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
If my team can get Sponger and his guns, I'm thinking 5 tops.

[/ QUOTE ]

pfft, I could take both of them myself

here is the picture again in case you guys forgot...

http://www.geocities.com/boogiemaster15/guns.JPG

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
As long as this isn't a The Karate Kid movie where they all stand around and only attack 1 at a time, 3 or 4 could easily do the job.

[/ QUOTE ]

But then they would just do like Chuck Norris and that kid in sidekicks, they would lock arms and spin in a circle kicking heads off.

[Kjell201]

[ QUOTE ]
People have this warped idea that Lee is 100 times tougher than anyone else that has ever existed. It's a joke. There is a reason that kung fu/karate guys aren't elite MMA fighters, and its because they are easily taken down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bruce Lee wasnt kung fu/karate although he practiced that as a kid. He developed Jeet Kune Do which is purely effective streetfighting with fingerjabs in the eyes, kicks to the groin etc.

I still agree that about 10 ppl rushing him would take him down but I also think 1 would die, 1 would be blind and 1 wouldnt be able to reproduce.

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

My friend, you are wrong. He is a legend for a reason

[/ QUOTE ]
Ya... he did movies.
I think a better fight scenerio would be 2+2ers vs Frank Mir and Randy Couture

[/ QUOTE ]

When you develop your own martial art that thousands and thousands study/studied and beat the Kung Fu council's representative (and countless others) then you, too, can do movies.

[Manimal]

No one currently in MMA would be able to do any real damage to Bruce Lee in a hand to hand street fight. He's able to generate far too much power in his strikes, from literally any distance. Add to that his speed and willingness to fight "dirty," and no one to ever fight in MMA would have a prayer.

Then there's the fact that he undoubtedly spent a lot of time practicing mass attack during his training, and it's going to take a lot more than 10-15 of us to do damage. He wasn't tougher than anyone to ever live, but he did have an amazing combination of speed, power, training, and ability to think about fighting. This, JKD, and his films set him apart from any other martial artists/fighters out there.

[Manimal]

It would be random 2+2'ers - no guarantee to get a good wrestler, or even anyone that could get a good takedown attempt in.

[nicky g]

"No one currently in MMA would be able to do any real damage to Bruce Lee in a hand to hand street fight. "

Yes, they would.

This thread is insanely dumb. Everyone seems to think Bruce Lee was superman. He was a great fighter, but no matter how great you are you're constrained by being a human being. No matter who you are, if 4 or 5 people swarm you you're screwed (unless you can outrun them or are armed). I say ten people at the absolute most, as long as one or two are willing to get hurt.

[Manimal]

Have you ever read anything by Bruce Lee? The second someone took him down, they'd have both his thumbs lodged firmly where their eyes used to be. I'm almost certain that would end any confrontation.

Also, stop by a local kung fu/Jeet Kune Do/Kenpo studio, and ask anyone there if they've practiced mass attack before, and if they have, how many guys they fought off. I would be amazed if you couldn't find someone that's fought off 6+ fellow students. Now, think about two things: A) That would have been in full contact practice against people with actual training, not just random 2+2'ers and B) That guy is nowhere near the level of Bruce Lee.

[TylerD]

No way could 5 random 2+2ers take down Bruce Lee, he has two legs, two arms and one head. Nuff said!

[nicky g]

"The second someone took him down, they'd have both his thumbs lodged firmly where their eyes used to be. I'm almost certain that would end any confrontation."

Um there are five other peole he has to deal with. You think he can do that while two are trying to grab his arms, one is punching him in the back of his head and choking him and another is releatedly kicking his knees? Or if you're talking about the MMA people, it's not like they can't also train dirty fighting tactics and prevention. They know how to disable limbs etc - if they can block punches they can block eye gouges. I'm not saying it would be an easy fight or that Lee wouldn;t often win, but to say that none of them could ever beat him is absurd.

"Also, stop by a local kung fu/Jeet Kune Do/Kenpo studio, and ask anyone there if they've practiced mass attack before, and if they have, how many guys they fought off. I would be amazed if you couldn't find someone that's fought off 6+ fellow students. "

This is stupid. For a start, I train (lightly) in martial arts and previously tarained in a JuJitsu style which focused very much on these kinds of things. We work on fighting multiple attackers and there are things you can do to help your chances, but noone can beat five reasonably competent people who are intent on taking them down. Secondly, I;ve seen such "mass attacks" in a variety of martial arts and they are very rarely "full contact" and never "no holds barred", for obvious reasons, and they very rarely "swarm" (or even try to take people down). If you have any footage of someone fighting off five people who are attacking full contact simultaneously and making a serious effort to take him to the ground, please feel free to post it. Thirdly, it makes no sense that these people can all fight off six of each other. Six of them can't take out one guy, yet take one of those six and he can fight off six people? Uh, right.

I heartily recommend you guys spend some time on Bullshido (http://www.bullshido.net) to dispell some of your illusions about what individual human beings are capable of in the fighting arena.

[Manimal]

I was referring to a one on one between Lee and an MMA fighter with regard to the eye gouge. This is the entirety of my statement: He's better than anyone out there when they're both on their feet. So, the only real chance would be to work a ground game. The problems with working a ground game are that he is able to effectively and quickly generate an amazing amount of power and would also use the most effective possible way of neutralizing a situation. Thus, without wrapping him in a bear hug and taking him down, he's going to land a severely damaging blow to break the hold either on the way down or immediately after hitting the ground. As a result, any individual MMA fighter would stand no chance.

With regard to the mass attack, I don't know what/where/how you train, but it sounds very different from my experience in Kenpo. Mass attack was always the last exercise in a session, and it was always conducted at full speed. It was always the less skilled/trained/whatever students mass attacking one student who was at least two belts higher. Obviously, there are discrepancies in the training levels of those involved - which, might I add, were smaller than the difference between the level of fighting skill of the average 2+2'er and Bruce Lee - but the fact still stands, there was more than one occasion where a higher ranking student was able to basically neutralize the group advantage through effective striking and smothering aggression - two of the things that Bruce Lee most strongly advocates.

[nicky g]

"He's better than anyone out there when they're both on their feet. "

Maybe. We can't say for sure. He fought against people from styles that didn;t hold up in NHB or even MMA kickboxing matches. Sure MMA doesn;t allow for a lot of "dirty" fighting, but that isn;t that difficult to learn.

"So, the only real chance would be to work a ground game. The problems with working a ground game are that he is able to effectively and quickly generate an amazing amount of power and would also use the most effective possible way of neutralizing a situation. Thus, without wrapping him in a bear hug and taking him down, he's going to land a severely damaging blow to break the hold either on the way down or immediately after hitting the ground. As a result, any individual MMA fighter would stand no chance. "

Once he's on the ground his "devestating strike" is gone. He himself insisted on the point that power in punches and kicks comes largely from the body. On the ground he's lost that. Also, let's remember that he was small. He may have had devestating punches, but there are much bigger people who properly trained could deliver a lot more force from a punch than he could. Those people fight in MMA matches, and their blows have not been enough to prevent takedowns owrking a large percentage of the time.

"It was always the less skilled/trained/whatever students mass attacking one student who was at least two belts higher. Obviously, there are discrepancies in the training levels of those involved - which, might I add, were smaller than the difference between the level of fighting skill of the average 2+2'er and Bruce Lee - but the fact still stands, there was more than one occasion where a higher ranking student was able to basically neutralize the group advantage through effective striking and smothering aggression - two of the things that Bruce Lee most strongly advocates. "

OK. I have never seen someone be able to do this to to five people swarming them full contact without let-up, but I'll take your word for it. I'd be interested to see it.

Edit: One question i would have is how were these people attacking? Were they coming in mostly with strikes? Were they really trying to work as a group eg have some get behind him and grab him at the same time as the others ataccked from the front?

[Manimal]

Well, now that you're open to the experience, don't just watch it, get in there and try it! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

As a final note on individual fight, you are absolutely correct - he'd lose a very good amount of his power on the ground. But I believe he'd still be able to generate enough power for a hard shot to a very sensitive area, to allow himself an escape possibility before his opponent was able to follow up on his takedown.

EDIT: Just saw your edit. The first few times, it was presented as a bar fight. The teacher just grabbed some students, pointed to the sparring session, and said "Are you gonna let your buddy get his ass kicked like that? Get in there and help him!" So, those first few times, it was basically mayhem, with one of the higher ranking students always just working to try and create space between him and the other student on his level, while still taking care of the lower level students. After 2-3 times, the instructor really saw the error in that setup, and he then had it set up more as a bodyguarding type situation, and called one of the higher ranking students off the floor. That's when the "metagame" considerations kicked in. Attacks started to become slightly coordinated, but still mainly focused on striking. But, that may have been because the first guy that tried to grapple was handily thrown aside, directly into the wall, leaving a nice divot. The "defender" also became increasingly aggressive, to the point where his main focus was disrupting any possible coordination.

[nicky g]

That sounds interesting. I think it is different from people spending a month together training how to execute a coordinated swarm attack, and I think your guy(s) would have had more trouble if several people rushed him with takedown style attacks at once; but it sounds good. On trying it, I don;t think there's much Kenpo in London other than Shorinji Kenpo, which I understand is pretty different.

[jakethebake]

I have no idea what "the average 2+2er" is. This would really depend on which 2+2ers we're talking about.

Oh yea, and is Greg "Turn Muggers Into Fossils" Raymer in?