Are you f+cking with me or what?

[lostinthought]

NL $50 - no reads on anybody yet.

Comments?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($63.2)
MP1 ($73.39)
MP2 ($74.6)
MP3 ($88.42)
CO ($48)
Button ($50)
SB ($190.45)
BB ($65.64)
UTG ($72.8)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) calls $3.50, BB folds.

Flop: ($9) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $8</font>, Hero calls $4.

Turn: ($25) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $13</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $30</font>, Hero calls $17.

River: ($85) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

SB bets $40, Hero calls all-in ($21.2)

Final Pot: $124.4

[istewart]

The check/minraise is scary. You're going all the way with this though, especially with the Ah.

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
Reraise the flop, push on the turn. If he has a set you're going broke, but you should have him. Unless he's a loosy with 44.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much to re-raise on the flop and why?

[istewart]

Not to Monday Morning Quarterback, but this more and more looks like a straight milking. He's got a set, maybe even AK as well.

[Sephus]

bigger bet on the flop, if you don't reraise the flop checkraise (edit: raise) the turn allin.

what on earth were you thinking when you didnt push the turn after he raised? i think calling is TERRIBLE. you are not folding at this point no matter what, there's no way he's folding on the turn, the only way you dont end up allin is if he's on a total draw and check/folds on the river.

[Sephus]

i contend that for 60 big blinds and flush/straight draws possible the hero should get allin here ASAP.

[Sephus]

what possesses a set to minraise his half pot bet on the flop on that board?

[istewart]

Checking and minraising on two streets? With a huge stack? That looks like some kind've hand to me. He knows Hero has a hand, too, so he's calling.

[TheWorstPlayer]

There is no possible hand that villain would have played correctly here. That being said, you have to get all in on the turn.

[lostinthought]

Does anybody put this player on a flush draw, trying to push me off my hand?

[lostinthought]

Would anybody (hypothetically) if they were hero with Ax (hearts) instead of the above hand, play hero's line the same way? (question primarily regards flop and turn play, as the river would be an easy call)

[TheWorstPlayer]

No, because trying to push someone off a hand with a min-raise one of the more idiotic ideas out there. And you didn't bet enough on the flop, so he almost certainly had the necessarily implied odds to simply call the flop bet, why raise? I can understand raising to blow you off your hand, but then make it a real raise....

[Sephus]

it looks like a goofily played AQ. when hero just calls the checkraise goofy thinks he cant have AA, KK, or AK so he thinks his AQ is good. then he checkraises because he thinks you have AJ or something, i dont know.

id say 44 and a4 are possibilities too, but if i HAD to pick 1 hand id pick AQ.

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]


what on earth were you thinking when you didnt push the turn after he raised? i think calling is TERRIBLE. you are not folding at this point no matter what, there's no way he's folding on the turn, the only way you dont end up allin is if he's on a total draw and check/folds on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does villian check-fold after check-min raising on two streets?

[TheWorstPlayer]

I wouldn't. With A/images/graemlins/heart.gifx I would bet 8 on the flop to try to take it down. Then I would check the turn through and take my free river.

[Sephus]

the chances that the villian check/folds the river are greater than the chances he folds the turn after raising. right?

you are getting allin no matter what, so you want the greatest odds that he comes with you. pushing on the turn does that for you.

even if you think that the odds of him folding on both streets are zero, you still save time by pushing the turn. right?

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
the chances that the villian check/folds the river are greater than the chances he folds the turn after raising. right?

you are getting allin no matter what, so you want the greatest odds that he comes with you. pushing on the turn does that for you.

even if you think that the odds of him folding on both streets are zero, you still save time by pushing the turn. right?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if I want to get all in, but think that coming over the top on the flop or turn will scare him off?

Is he really check-raising me with a draw here?

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
Checking and minraising on two streets? With a huge stack? That looks like some kind've hand to me. He knows Hero has a hand, too, so he's calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either a hand, or too much WPT..

[Sephus]

on the turn if you push, there is $106.2 in the pot and he has to call $21.2. the chances that he folds are even lower than the chances he has checkminraised on 2 streets with a hand that he might check/fold on the river. (perfect example: he called your raise with k4 and will fold if an ace rivers).

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
on the turn if you push, there is $106.2 in the pot and he has to call $21.2. the chances that he folds are even lower than the chances he has checkminraised on 2 streets with a hand that he might check/fold on the river. (perfect example: he called your raise with k4 and will fold if an ace rivers).

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken, but, I think the same player is capable of a desperation call after putting in so much money..

Or maybe a desperation river bluff..

[Sephus]

bah! i'm not talking about what he's capable of, i'm talking about what's likely. i'm saying there is no way in hell he's on a stone bluff and folding the turn after he raises, but there is a small chance he's on a big draw or could somehow be driven to check/fold the river.

edit: if he desperation calls the river he certainly desperation calls the turn, so that argument is gone.

[lostinthought]

Well, villian shows QcKc, and MHIG.

Thoughts:

Not sure if I could get away from this hand - if villian has 44, then he has 44.

However, if he has worse than me, I don't want to chase him out (although I do want to charge him).

Looking back at his hand, I think he would have folded to a

1) larger flop bet (e.g. pot size)
2) larger turn bet (e.g. again pot size)
3) givem the above action, a turn re-raise all in

of course, nobody could put villian on this hand, and with a probably hand distribution, this would have to be the lowest.

my question is this:

There seems to still be a fair amount of fish at the $50 level who like to mess around - are the atypical ways of playing hands that will allow you to take advantage of their desire to use FPS?

[soah]

Why are you trying to figure out ways to make him fold when you had him drawing dead?

Why are other people in this thread trying desperately to protect your hand against a draw when it's quite obvious that your opponent doesn't have a draw?

[istewart]

What does MHIG mean?

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you trying to figure out ways to make him fold when you had him drawing dead?

Why are other people in this thread trying desperately to protect your hand against a draw when it's quite obvious that your opponent doesn't have a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my question. I figure, I'm either way ahead or way behind (although against 44 I still have 4 outs), but really, I just want to get the money in the middle. When he checks the turn, I sense something fishy and bet half the pot basically to encourage him to stay in. Not only did it work (the turn check-raise), he made a second best hand that he couldn't get away from on the river.

However, I'm not sure how much of this play is typical for villian, and how mow easier it is to say this in hindsight.

However, there are still a ton of fishy players at NL$50..

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
What does MHIG mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

My hand is good.

[Shiva]

I quess the question is on the flop what hands did you put him on? On the turn after he checked what hand did you put him on? The way you played the hand it sounds like you put him on a set. At these micro limits a draw, Ace or even straight he may call. A set he goes over the top all-in. Get the money in the middle on the turn. You increase your +EV especially if he's on a draw. As it turns out he should be added to your buddy list.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, villian shows QcKc, and MHIG.

Thoughts:

Not sure if I could get away from this hand - if villian has 44, then he has 44.

However, if he has worse than me, I don't want to chase him out (although I do want to charge him).

Looking back at his hand, I think he would have folded to a

1) larger flop bet (e.g. pot size)
2) larger turn bet (e.g. again pot size)
3) givem the above action, a turn re-raise all in

of course, nobody could put villian on this hand, and with a probably hand distribution, this would have to be the lowest.

[/ QUOTE ]

what he "would have done" with KQ is irrelevant.

by the way, 3) is probably wrong. he would call thinking at worst he can hit a king or a queen to win.

on the turn are you thinking "i hope he improves on the river so he'll bet or call my 1/6 of the pot allin" after he checkraises you twice? give me a break. this player obviously thought KQ was the nuts, it looks like you've spent the whole thread trying to justify calling because he ended up with KQ and hit a queen.

this player is obviously irrational, as we all could basically tell before we saw his cards, he might have had 2h3h and thought he had a straight or JhTh and thought it was a monster. making a bigger bet on the flop and coming over the top on the turn flat out make more sense than your line, regardless of what hand he actually held.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you trying to figure out ways to make him fold when you had him drawing dead?

Why are other people in this thread trying desperately to protect your hand against a draw when it's quite obvious that your opponent doesn't have a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

way to show up after the results and come off like this (i'm cranky).

i dont think he's saying he wants him to fold KQ. i dont know what you're talking about.

it's not obvious that the opponent doesn't have a draw on the flop, his minraise may be his goofy way of trying to buy a cheap card. you still have to bet the turn, and when he raises it doesn't make any sense not to go allin.

this thread is annoying. guy plays hand against someone who doesnt know how to play, we try in vain to put him on a hand, guy trys to justify his line because he really likes how he played it all along. i should have just left it with my original post. with stacks these sizes, bigger flop bet, turn push over the raise, EASY.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
way to show up after the results and come off like this (i'm cranky).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'm sorry I didn't stay up until 1 AM just so that I could catch this thread in the two hour window which was available prior to the results being posted.

But fish don't min-checkraise out of position with draws. You see it occasionally when they have position in order to take a free card but even that is rare in my experience. And even if the guy does have a draw... then great, he's charging himself more to draw and doing all of your work for you. I'd rather go with the assumption that I'm up against another made hand, and worry about what line I should take to win me the most if I'm ahead and lose the least if I'm behind.

That said though, I would have bet more on the flop and the rest of the hand presumably would have played out differently. If I had bet close to pot size and been raised and had then called on the flop, I would be very tempted to check behind on the turn, because the turn check means they either have you very badly beaten, or they have crap. And individual results aside, you're generally only getting called on the turn bet if you're way behind. I'd rather let the weak hands have a chance to bluff the river, and perhaps save a couple bucks if I'm up against a set.