Semantics Question (warning stupidity inside)

[Schneids]

I tell NLSoldier, "I'm not going to put any more time into a botched effort."

NLSoldier says, "You didn't put any time into it, how can you call it an effort?"

I say, "My effort was botched in that I didn't put enough effort into it."

NLSoldier tells me it's impossible to botch an effort if I never tried.

I insist that an effort involves a reflection on what one does, and doing nothing still counts as an effort, therefore it's possible for me to have a botched effort while not trying.

Other than "who cares?" who's right?

[Alobar]

you sir, are correct

[NLSoldier]

ef·fort Audio pronunciation of "effort" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (frt)
n.

1. The use of physical or mental energy to do something; exertion.
2. A difficult exertion of the strength or will: It was an effort to get up.
3. A usually earnest attempt: Make an effort to arrive promptly.
4. Something done or produced through exertion; an achievement: a play that was his finest effort.
5. Physics. Force applied against inertia.

Definintion 1 seems to apply to this situation. You didn't exert any physical or mental energy, therefore no effort was involved.

[pshreck]

I would have to agree with your friend.

If you botched something up, you ruined through being an idiot. By never actually doing anything, you don't have anything to ruin.

Ok I just was lame and went to dictionary.com to confirm. Just go read the definition http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=botch

You can't botch something up by simply not doing it.

[Michael Davis]

You did not make an effort.

Wouldn't a statement like that be impossible if what you're saying is correct?

-Michael

[NLSoldier]

Exactly.

Thank you sir.

[Schneids]

Regarding #1: It is still using mental energy to choose to do nothing.

The botchery comes from my mental choice of zero effort.

[drewjustdrew]

NL Soldier is correct. Thinking about is not doing. If you actually did do some planning with an earnest intention of doing something, that is in itself an effort. That effort, however, was not botched. It was a successful effort because it helped you to identify that the effort requiring more time was botched (I assume by somebody else. Otherwise you have previously invested time and would correctly not put any MORE time into it).

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]

Regarding #1: It is still using mental energy to choose to do nothing.

The botchery comes from my mental choice of zero effor

[/ QUOTE ]

<*(((><

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
"My effort was botched in that I didn't put enough effort into it."

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? You're running in circles. Whatever it was you claimed to have efforted, you obviously didn't.

[ThaSaltCracka]

NL Soldier is right.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
you sir, are correct

[/ QUOTE ]

Alobar is there any chance of you changing your mind, I'd really rather he didn't get the satisfaction of having 1 person agree with him /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Michael Davis]

Actually I agree with him that an effort can be botched just not that nothing can be an effort, or that saying something is an effort has anything at all to do with reflection. Most of that just seems desperate.

-Michael

[Riskwise]

[ QUOTE ]
NLSoldier tells me it's impossible to botch an effort if I never tried.

[/ QUOTE ]

NLsoldier is right, it is impossible to botch something that never existed, so the real question is, what is considered an effor?

if your mind was wandering and you "thought about it", thats not an effort. If you phisically worked towards it, in any degree, it was an effort and schnieds is right in the fact that he botched it.

EDIT: [ QUOTE ]
The botchery comes from my mental choice of zero effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

due to newly recieved info and my supreme power and respect in this forum, i declare NLsoldier he winner.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
if your mind was wandering and you "thought about it", thats not an effort. If you phisically worked towards it, in any degree, it was an effort and schnieds is right in the fact that he botched it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya all he did was think about it, he never worked toward it whatsoever.

BTW-Schneids maybe you can get satisfaction in the fact that this thread is a totally botched effort in itself /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
If you botched something up, you ruined through being an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
By never actually doing anything, you don't have anything to ruin.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say: Being idiot --> botch something up; doing nothing != being idiot. Therefore, doing nothing != botching something.


I say: Doing nothing --> being idiot (in the context of the specific thing me and NL were discussing); being idiot --> botching something. Therefore, doing nothing == botching something.


I think the law of transitivity does apply.

[Riskwise]

[ QUOTE ]

BTW-Schneids maybe you can get satisfaction in the fact that this thread is a totally botched effort in itself /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

PPPPPPWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!

[ThaSaltCracka]

you are dumb.

[gonores]

I don't know the answer, but I do know that you and NLSoldier are getting much-deserved wedgies from me next time I see you.

[Riskwise]

NLsoldier is macho

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
and its funny cause i bet you could do it too, assuming your average size. (no offense, just showing that the joke is legit)

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG punk, just for that, YOU are getting a [censored] wedgie next time I see you, which will probably be like later today or maybe tommorow.

[Riskwise]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and its funny cause i bet you could do it too, assuming your average size. (no offense, just showing that the joke is legit)

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG punk, just for that, YOU are getting a [censored] wedgie next time I see you, which will probably be like later today or maybe tommorow.

[/ QUOTE ]

for what!?!? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Ulysses]

OK. Let's say you on Sunday decide to run 50 miles for the week. You think about doing 10-mile runs 5 of the 7 days. Let us stipulate that you are physically capable of doing this. So, you decide on Sunday that you will make an effort to run 50 miles in the next seven days.

On Monday, you don't run, but that's OK, you can start on Tuesday. But then on Tuesday, you go out for drinks. This leaves 5 days. Let's also stipulate that you are physically capable of doing 4 12.5 mile runs during those 5 days.

Well, next thing we know, it's Friday and you haven't done any running yet. We will also stipulate for this exercise that you are not physically capable of running 50 miles in three consecutive days and you know it.

Two scenarios.

1) You concede defeat and don't run.

2) You know you can't meet your goal, but run your personal max of 15 miles on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

I think most would agree that scenario 2 was a botched effort. I don't think it's unreasonable to make the claim that scenario 1 is also a botched effort. For those who claim scenario 1 is not a botched effort, do you think scenario 2 is a botched effort?

[Ogre]

Gay post of year! (except troll posts)

[Schneids]

After explaining the specific context of the situation to a couple of people who've also read this thread, they've affirmed I am right and likewise I am now 99% sure I'm correct after thinking about it more.

Thank you all who took the time to respond though, I consider this thread over.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Gay post of year! (except troll posts)

[/ QUOTE ]

FU. I like semantics questions.

[[censored]]

I would consider neither a botched effort as it pertains to the original goal of running 50 miles. #1 & #2 are the same in that the runner failed to attempt to run 50 miles. In #2 the only difference is that he adopted a new goal of running 15 miles over 3 days.

If the original intent was to determine if you were physically capable of running 50 miles in a week than I would say this was not a botched effort but a lack of effort.

However if the intent was to see if you were capable of adopting a program or habit of running 5miles a day, and the only question is whether you have the determination to do it, not whether you are physically capable of doing it, than failing to run at all would still count as an effort.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
After explaining the specific context of the situation to a couple of people who've also read this thread, they've affirmed I am right and likewise I am now 99% sure I'm correct after thinking about it more.

Thank you all who took the time to respond though, I consider this thread over.

[/ QUOTE ]

You ask a question, pretty much everyone agrees that you are wrong, you then claim that you have decided you are still right and attempt to end the thread so that people will stop telling you how wrong you are.

LMAO.

[GuyOnTilt]

I'm with Schneids.

GoT

[Ulysses]

In my scenario, the thing he was making an effort to do was run 50 miles. That's it. Simple.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After explaining the specific context of the situation to a couple of people who've also read this thread, they've affirmed I am right and likewise I am now 99% sure I'm correct after thinking about it more.

Thank you all who took the time to respond though, I consider this thread over.

[/ QUOTE ]

You ask a question, pretty much everyone agrees that you are wrong, you then claim that you have decided you are still right and attempt to end the thread so that people will stop telling you how wrong you are.

LMAO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well being one of the people who he spoke to about the specific context of this "effort", I'll give my take. I'm quite familiar with this story, and given my knowledge of this story I feel Schneids is explaining it wrong. Given the circumstances of said situation it is a botched effort due to the fact that he actually did put mental and physical efforts into it that he doesn't seem to be letting on. The problem came in the fact that the amount of physical and mental effort he put in wasn't sufficient to achieve success in his objective. Therefore due to the fact that he put in both mental and physical effort but not sufficient to success you can qualify that endeavor as a botched effort.

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
So, you decide on Sunday that you will make an effort to run 50 miles in the next seven days.

On Monday, you don't run, but that's OK, you can start on Tuesday.

[/ QUOTE ]
In this scenerio, I would give you that this would be a botched effort.

However, if on Monday the person decides to abandon the whole enterprise altogether(and not just procrastinating), then I wouldn't consider it a botched effort.

[Riskwise]

[ QUOTE ]
After explaining the specific context of the situation to a couple of people who've also read this thread, they've affirmed I am right and likewise I am now 99% sure I'm correct after thinking about it more.

Thank you all who took the time to respond though, I consider this thread over.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummmmmmmm right... and i'm ________ (something rediculous that is obviously not true)

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Well being one of the people who he spoke to about the specific context of this "effort", I'll give my take. I'm quite familiar with this story, and given my knowledge of this story I feel Schneids is explaining it wrong. Given the circumstances of said situation it is a botched effort due to the fact that he actually did put mental and physical efforts into it that he doesn't seem to be letting on. The problem came in the fact that the amount of physical and mental effort he put in wasn't sufficient to achieve success in his objective. Therefore due to the fact that he put in both mental and physical effort but not sufficient to success you can qualify that endeavor as a botched effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

Had he tried and failed like you are alluding to, then I agree, but he didn't try whatsoever. The opportunity to try to achieve his goal was right in front of him and he made no effort, attempt, motion, whatever you want to call it, in the direction of achieving that goal. Not doing anything took no physical or mental energy, therefore he exerted no effort. Since he didn't exert any effort, he can't call what he did a botched effort. He didn't botch it because he didn't even try.

To use Diablo's example, lets say that right now I make a goal to run a mile in the next 30 seconds, if I get out of my chair and so much as put my running shoes on, I think you could say its a botched effort when the 30 seconds are up, but if I just stay in my chair and keep typing, then I have made no effort to achieve my goal and therefore it cannot be a botched effort.

[Vince Young]

Effort doesn't look like it's spelled correctly after seeing it numerous times in one thread. Anyone agree?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
To use Diablo's example, lets say that right now I make a goal to run a mile in the next 30 seconds, if I get out of my chair and so much as put my running shoes on, I think you could say its a botched effort when the 30 seconds are up, but if I just stay in my chair and keep typing, then I have made no effort to achieve my goal and therefore it cannot be a botched effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. But what if you say in your mind "OK, I'm going to finish typing this sentence which will take 5 seconds and then I'm going to crank out that mile" and then you end up typing a few more words and the next thing you know, 30 seconds have passed.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Effort doesn't look like it's spelled correctly after seeing it numerous times in one thread. Anyone agree?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, but this thread certainly makes my head hurt.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well being one of the people who he spoke to about the specific context of this "effort", I'll give my take. I'm quite familiar with this story, and given my knowledge of this story I feel Schneids is explaining it wrong. Given the circumstances of said situation it is a botched effort due to the fact that he actually did put mental and physical efforts into it that he doesn't seem to be letting on. The problem came in the fact that the amount of physical and mental effort he put in wasn't sufficient to achieve success in his objective. Therefore due to the fact that he put in both mental and physical effort but not sufficient to success you can qualify that endeavor as a botched effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

Had he tried and failed like you are alluding to, then I agree, but he didn't try whatsoever. The opportunity to try to achieve his goal was right in front of him and he made no effort, attempt, motion, whatever you want to call it, in the direction of achieving that goal. Not doing anything took no physical or mental energy, therefore he exerted no effort. Since he didn't exert any effort, he can't call what he did a botched effort. He didn't botch it because he didn't even try.

To use Diablo's example, lets say that right now I make a goal to run a mile in the next 30 seconds, if I get out of my chair and so much as put my running shoes on, I think you could say its a botched effort when the 30 seconds are up, but if I just stay in my chair and keep typing, then I have made no effort to achieve my goal and therefore it cannot be a botched effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you made this statement shows you are either unfamiliar with the specifics of the whole story or you are unwilling to admit defeat in this argument. I could list off several occasions in which he exerted slight amounts of physical and/or mental efforts that were not enough to achieve success. However since we seem to be maintaining a quasi-secretive sense about any actual details of this "effort" I won't post this, but feel free to im me for any necessary details.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To use Diablo's example, lets say that right now I make a goal to run a mile in the next 30 seconds, if I get out of my chair and so much as put my running shoes on, I think you could say its a botched effort when the 30 seconds are up, but if I just stay in my chair and keep typing, then I have made no effort to achieve my goal and therefore it cannot be a botched effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. But what if you say in your mind "OK, I'm going to finish typing this sentence which will take 5 seconds and then I'm going to crank out that mile" and then you end up typing a few more words and the next thing you know, 30 seconds have passed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that can be considered a botched effort because I exerted no energy in the direction of completing the goal. Simply thinking about something for a few seconds and then not acting on it doenst make it a botched effort. If one minute I think about running a mile and a few minutes later I think about swimming a mile and a few minutes later I think about starting my own business and a little later I think about banging Adriana Lima, and I never act on any of them, are they all botched efforts? I don't think so.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
OK. Let's say you on Sunday decide to run 50 miles for the week. You think about doing 10-mile runs 5 of the 7 days. Let us stipulate that you are physically capable of doing this. So, you decide on Sunday that you will make an effort to run 50 miles in the next seven days.

On Monday, you don't run, but that's OK, you can start on Tuesday. But then on Tuesday, you go out for drinks. This leaves 5 days. Let's also stipulate that you are physically capable of doing 4 12.5 mile runs during those 5 days.

Well, next thing we know, it's Friday and you haven't done any running yet. We will also stipulate for this exercise that you are not physically capable of running 50 miles in three consecutive days and you know it.

Two scenarios.

1) You concede defeat and don't run.

2) You know you can't meet your goal, but run your personal max of 15 miles on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

I think most would agree that scenario 2 was a botched effort. I don't think it's unreasonable to make the claim that scenario 1 is also a botched effort. For those who claim scenario 1 is not a botched effort, do you think scenario 2 is a botched effort?

[/ QUOTE ]


Your logic and analogy is flawed. You bring up a scenario in which doing nothing is a failure, ie the lack of running is failure. Most "botched efforts" involve starting a business and losing the investmentm or playing a higher limit and losing your buy in.

Your analogy is incorrect if the botched effort in question can't be botched by doing nothing. If I say I will take a shot at the bigger game in my cardroom but never do, I have not botched an effort I have just not put any effort in.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you sir, are correct

[/ QUOTE ]

Alobar is there any chance of you changing your mind, I'd really rather he didn't get the satisfaction of having 1 person agree with him /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, sorry man (unless you wanna neteller me like $20, then I'll get on here and tell him what an idiot he is /images/graemlins/smile.gif). I actually agree with him. Sometimes doing nothing takes alot of effort. Effort isnt a quantity measure of how much of something actually gets done. So having a zero on the output side doesnt mean there was zero effort.

If I get dumped by my girlfriend, and promise myself I'm not going to call her. then I end up calling her 20 minutes after I make that promise, that still doesnt mean I put no effort into it, It just means I didnt put enough effort into it. Even if I just thought "damn, dont call her" one time in my head, that was effort. So as long as schnieds even thought about doing something (or not doing something) he expended some sort of effort.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes doing nothing takes alot of effort. Effort isnt a quantity measure of how much of something actually gets done. So having a zero on the output side doesnt mean there was zero effort.

[/ QUOTE ] This is the logic of a lazy man. You are putting zero effort in.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Your analogy is incorrect if the botched effort in question can't be botched by doing nothing. If I say I will take a shot at the bigger game in my cardroom but never do, I have not botched an effort I have just not put any effort in.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is my point exactly, Schneids said he was gonna take a shot his goal and never did.

Thanks Voltron.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your analogy is incorrect if the botched effort in question can't be botched by doing nothing. If I say I will take a shot at the bigger game in my cardroom but never do, I have not botched an effort I have just not put any effort in.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is my point exactly, Schneids said he was gonna take a shot his goal and never did.

Thanks Voltron.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I'm also saying is that oursiders can't really judge this without knowing what Schneids was thinking of attempting.

[MEbenhoe]

AIM convo (names changed for protection /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

NLSoldier: lol
NLSoldier: this is getting super gay
NLSoldier: and i gotta go
MEbenhoe: YOU LOSE
NLSoldier: no
NLSoldier: i dont think so
MEbenhoe: <*(((><
NLSoldier: wow
NLSoldier: ok schneids
MEbenhoe: haha

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Your logic and analogy is flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Your analogy is incorrect if the botched effort in question can't be botched by doing nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, what you're saying is:

1. My analogy holds true for some types of efforts.
2. You don't know the nature of the effort in question.
3. My analogy is flawed.

Yes, someone's logic is flawed.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your logic and analogy is flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Your analogy is incorrect if the botched effort in question can't be botched by doing nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, what you're saying is:

1. My analogy holds true for some types of efforts.
2. You don't know the nature of the effort in question.
3. My analogy is flawed.

Yes, someone's logic is flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'm not going to lie, I wrote this quickly and I didn't word it well.

1. your analogy does not apply to all efforts,
2. Your analogy does apply to some efforts, but we do not know the effort in question,
3. What I mean by "your analogy is flawed" is that it doesn't hold true to all "botched efforts".

[Ulysses]

Yes. I was simply pointing out that those who responded initially were not necessarily correct. I did not state my opinion on the matter since I felt more information was necessary to make that judgement.

Hopefully Schneids will make a return appearance to help clear things up.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully Schneids will make a return appearance to help clear things up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't count on him clearing things up or even returning to this thread actually.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
If I get dumped by my girlfriend, and promise myself I'm not going to call her. then I end up calling her 20 minutes after I make that promise, that still doesnt mean I put no effort into it, It just means I didnt put enough effort into it. Even if I just thought "damn, dont call her" one time in my head, that was effort. So as long as schnieds even thought about doing something (or not doing something) he expended some sort of effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, this is a valid point. Trying to refuse temptation can be considered an effort. But he said he wasn't going to put anymore time into a botched effort. That's like saying I'm not going to make anymore hamburgers when you've never made a hamburger in your life. Or saying I'm not going to spend anymore time building that house when you don't even know where the build site is.

What exactly is this effort of yours?

Holy cow, I feel like I'm in a philosophy class.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
AIM convo (names changed for protection /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

NLSoldier: lol
NLSoldier: this is getting super gay
NLSoldier: and i gotta go
MEbenhoe: YOU LOSE
NLSoldier: no
NLSoldier: i dont think so
MEbenhoe: <*(((><
NLSoldier: wow
NLSoldier: ok schneids
MEbenhoe: haha

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clear things up, I actually had to leave to play tennis. This wasn't an "uh oh im losing this argument I better leave" type of thing. Also I'm serious about this being gay, Diablo I don't understand how you can say you like arguments about semantics. This seems like a huge waste of time to me.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, this is a valid point. Trying to refuse temptation can be considered an effort. But he said he wasn't going to put anymore time into a botched effort. That's like saying I'm not going to make anymore hamburgers when you've never made a hamburger in your life. Or saying I'm not going to spend anymore time building that house when you don't even know where the build site is.

What exactly is this effort of yours?

Holy cow, I feel like I'm in a philosophy class.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. Unfortunately I don't think Schneids wants the effort itself made public, but I think it falls into the class of things that you reffered to, as in, it wasnt something that took effort not to do.

[wacki]

I don't understand how a man who is smart enough to play 30/60 online can actually argue about this and not be trolling.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AIM convo (names changed for protection /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

NLSoldier: lol
NLSoldier: this is getting super gay
NLSoldier: and i gotta go
MEbenhoe: YOU LOSE
NLSoldier: no
NLSoldier: i dont think so
MEbenhoe: <*(((><
NLSoldier: wow
NLSoldier: ok schneids
MEbenhoe: haha

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clear things up, I actually had to leave to play tennis. This wasn't an "uh oh im losing this argument I better leave" type of thing. Also I'm serious about this being gay, Diablo I don't understand how you can say you like arguments about semantics. This seems like a huge waste of time to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever you lost that argument and you know it. Don't mess with a master debater like me /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

[Riskwise]

correction, NLsoldier = PWNED!!!