The infamous call-3bet line

[Snoogins47]

Hand history just doesn't work. Read is that I can't see any players that stand out in any amazing fashion, so just figure a standard slightly loose/slightly passive 5/10 game.

$5/$10 Hold'Em Real money, 9 handed

Hero is dealt A /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif in MP. UTG and UTG+1 limp, Hero limps, CO limps, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: 6 handed, Pot: 6SB

T /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG checks, UTG+1 Bets, <font color="red"> Hero calls, </font>CO Raises, SB cold-calls, BB folds, UTG cold-calls, <font color="red">Hero raises... </font>

Questions, comments, concerns? It's not a line that I use very often, but I think it was best on the flop here. Also, what is your plan of attack after this? Lead on a Club/7/A turn, check-raise on some, lead on a blank turn, check-call on a blank...?

[chief444]

My standard play with hand like this is to just bet and raise and much as possible on the flop.

[Mr. Amanti]

normally i would raise this straight away, but it worked out perfectly for you. but i wouldn't play it again that way unless you know there was going to be a late position raiser on the flop.

as for the turn your 7 is no good alone as it stands, you need a club or an ace to bet here otherwise check and call

[ScottTheFish]

a pair and the nut flush draw is a very strong hand, do whatever you think will get the maximum amount of money in the pot on the flop. If you're pretty sure there will be a LP raise, the call-reraise line will get the most money in. Otherwise just raise.

[Victor]

This is a good play as long as you know why you made it. Since you posted it implies that you have reasons but are not completely sure that they are valid.

It is quite simple though really. After facing the first bet you are pretty sure you are behind but have a monster draw so you want to keep others in when you make a monster. When you are assured 3 other opps you should realize it is correct to pump the pot as your equity is huge and you are close to 50% to improve.

On the turn you should bet if you improve. Bet for value and because the pot is big you will likely be called by anyone with any piece.

Check if you dont improve. The reason is because your equity goes way down on the turn if you dont improve. You certainly still have the odds to draw to the river but you want to see it for as cheaply as possible. Also, there is virtually no chance that a bet on the turn in this pot will win it for you.

[brick]

Very well said.

[MCS]

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After facing the first bet you are pretty sure you are behind but have a monster draw so you want to keep others in when you make a monster.

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With the nut flush draw, it's often appropriate to knock out players. Your hand will have showdown value here even if it doesn't hit the flush, which it usually won't. Also, if you think people are drawing, you want them to pay two bets instead of one.

The idea of "not losing customers" is flawed because flush draws and straight draws are calling anyway, and if they don't, you're fine with that too. The worst situation for you is if people fold flush draws AND the flush hits. But (1) they usually won't fold flush draws, as they shouldn't, and (2) that flush over flush parlay is pretty rare.

I would raise the flop. I wouldn't even be 100% sure I was behind; UTG+1 could have a draw. Certainly, once the CO raises, you should 3-bet. My turn action would depend on what else happened on the flop. Given the way you played it, I would lead the turn if I hit, and I think that if the pot was still four-handed, I would lead the turn even if I didn't hit.

[Snoogins47]

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After facing the first bet you are pretty sure you are behind but have a monster draw so you want to keep others in when you make a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the nut flush draw, it's often appropriate to knock out players. Your hand will have showdown value here even if it doesn't hit the flush, which it usually won't. Also, if you think people are drawing, you want them to pay two bets instead of one.

The idea of "not losing customers" is flawed because flush draws and straight draws are calling anyway, and if they don't, you're fine with that too. The worst situation for you is if people fold flush draws AND the flush hits. But (1) they usually won't fold flush draws, as they shouldn't, and (2) that flush over flush parlay is pretty rare.

I would raise the flop. I wouldn't even be 100% sure I was behind; UTG+1 could have a draw. Certainly, once the CO raises, you should 3-bet. My turn action would depend on what else happened on the flop. Given the way you played it, I would lead the turn if I hit, and I think that if the pot was still four-handed, I would lead the turn even if I didn't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't 100% sure I was behind the bettor, but I was probably 90% sure that I was beat by at least one of the players in the pot with me. It could, of course, be underestimating my showdown value.

I agree with what an earlier poster said about trying to get as much money in the pot on the flop as possible.

I'd like to also correct a flaw here: I was basing this hand off of memory, as I haven't been able to get hand histories to work at all recently. Reading back, I'm 100% certain the positioning in this hand is off.

I may have been in the BB, which would make my line make much more sense, as the overriding thought process here was that flat-calling would probably get the most money in the pot, because nearly the entire field of 4 or 5 behind me would be forced to call two-cold, and somebody having something they wanted to raise behind me I figured was very possible.

This was a situation where I figured just calling and letting the hand develop might have been best, as I was a)fairly certain I was behind, b)had half the deck to improve, and c)had almost no chance to win without a showdown, without improvement, etc. Any money I'm shoveling in on the flop wants desperately to be called by everybody, and at this point I don't really care who or where it's coming from. In fact, I'd rather have $5 put in from 6 places, than $10 put in from 3. And with the chance of somebody popping it behind me, I figured it was best to flat-call, with the intention of 3-betting almost any raise from any position.

I think the discussion of my line on the flop is very interesting, but I've been thinking about this today a bit more, and had one overriding question in my head: how does this flop line look to your average 5/10 player?

My intentions were to lead out on any turn that improved me, and most that didn't, if the field was down to &lt; 3 opponents or so. I hit my club on the turn, and of course it checked to me.

The flop raiser had not capped on the flop, which was a shame. Had he, I think it'd be a simple turn check-raise, given the relative positions. Here, I hesitated for a second, debating going for the check-raise, and bet out instead.

Multi-way pots are interesting.

[me454555]

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I wasn't 100% sure I was behind the bettor, but I was probably 90% sure that I was beat by at least one of the players in the pot with me

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If the flop was T /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif you MUST raise this flop bet even though you are more likely to be behind on this flop than the one in the hand. You need to be able to clear up your ace outs if you hit.

This is not so much of a concern on this flop b/c you paired your kicker and an ace now gives you 2 pair instead of 1. The reason a call on this flop, instead of a raise, is acceptable is NOT b/c you think you are behind but because you do not have to clean up your outs.

[Snoogins47]

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I wasn't 100% sure I was behind the bettor, but I was probably 90% sure that I was beat by at least one of the players in the pot with me

[/ QUOTE ]

If the flop was T /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif you MUST raise this flop bet even though you are more likely to be behind on this flop than the one in the hand. You need to be able to clear up your ace outs if you hit.

This is not so much of a concern on this flop b/c you paired your kicker and an ace now gives you 2 pair instead of 1. The reason a call on this flop, instead of a raise, is acceptable is NOT b/c you think you are behind but because you do not have to clean up your outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a very good point. I was going to mention something about that too. None of my 2p/trip outs are dirty so to speak, since any of the hands against which my Ace or Seven wouldn't suffice, I was losing to anyway. In fact, that's another thing I wanted to mention but didn't. Along the lines of keeping people in: Not only will smaller flush draws get drawn in, but somebody with second pair, or some overcards, might peel the turn card off for a single bet, and maybe even get sucked in due to the size of the pot if somebody along the line raises and then I 3bet. I have bigger ace hands reverse dominated, and I'm outkicking anybody who has a naked seven, and these are hands that might fold if they were faced with calling two bets cold.

[MCS]

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one of my 2p/trip outs are dirty so to speak, since any of the hands against which my Ace or Seven wouldn't suffice, I was losing to anyway.

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I thought about this, which is why in my reply, I didn't talk about "cleaning up ace outs." You don't need to. The thing is, somebody with 54 has five outs to beat you, and it's valuable to knock them out.

I guess if you're really sure that you need to hit to win--which I'm not sure you should be--then it doesn't matter, since you have decided you are not showing your hand without two pair or better.

If you have any notion of calling a river bet unimproved, you need to raise. I think you should anyway, because why are you so sure that it'll get raised behind you? Nobody has shown any strength thus far.

Granted, this is one of the few times where I don't hate calling with the nut flush draw against a big field. Usually I think it's pretty bad, but it does make some sense here.

The call-3bet line is really fun too.

[MCS]

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The thing is, somebody with 54 has five outs to beat you, and it's valuable to knock them out.

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That was a dirty lie. They have either three or four outs (and, of course, even if they hit you have many redraws).

[slavic]

WHne you get a flop like this jam it immediatly. If you can get it heads up you are a favorite for the hand. A pair and a flush draw is a powerfull thing. You may be ahead but even if you aren't you have 14 outs to improve twice.