KK on the button: Fold? or call him down? [Archive]

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CardSharpCook

01-17-2005, 03:29 AM

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10.66 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (11.33 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero ?

ShawnHoo

01-17-2005, 04:03 AM

Any reads on the opponents?

I think you're drawing to two outs; I'd fold. The very active presence of the UTG+1 (who must assume that UTG and Hero have better than overcards) and the fact that your call wouldn't close the action is what leads me to this conclusion.

CardSharpCook

01-17-2005, 04:10 AM

UTG is a guy I love to play with because he raises with hands that I fold, has no concept of how position relates to the value of a hand, and would pay you off with pocket twos rather than fold a pair. I have no read on UTG+1, he just sat down, and I don't have much history on him.

CSC

MicroBob

01-17-2005, 04:21 AM

I hate folding here.
I also have calling here.

Sincerely -
John Kerry

Seriously....I'm looking forward to some other responses on this.
do UTG or UTG+1 really raise and call with a 7 here?
I'm thinking the chances of you being behind to QQ or AA are a bit higher than being behind to a 7.

your read on the one player changes that a little bit though.

I'm considering the possibility of calling the 2-bets and then folding the same round if it comes back to you for 2 more bets (capped).
I think I like folding right now better though. This seems less likely to be a healthy win and more likely to be an expensive loss.

Mr. Amanti

01-17-2005, 05:10 AM

the possibility of having to pay 4 bets to see the river is daunting, but the pot is also pretty large and there is a deffinite possibility that both opponants have AQ

I'd probably call down and hate myself for doing it

vulture

01-17-2005, 08:24 AM

<blockquote>Als antwoord op:<hr />
Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K.
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this stage of the hand I would say AA (and QQ) is not an option because it would be a mistake IMO to slowplay the hand with two more people in. It's hard to make up for the lost two SB the AA would loose when not capping preflop.

<blockquote>Als antwoord op:<hr />
Flop: (10.66 SB) Q, 7, 7 (3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, UTG calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this aggressive play gives you the read that there is a better hand in play and I think it did considering your post, you should have folded your hand after the cap of UTG+1.
I don't agree with a previous poster that a 7 can't be in the play. The players on party poker will more than once colcall with a hand like A7s.
I don't know how aggresive your opponents are but IMO there still is a possiblity you have the best hand, though the call reraise of UTG+1 scares me.

The main point is that if you think you are lost you should have known this on the turn and if so the biggest mistake is to coldcall there. If you think you still have the best hand with a reasonable possibility, you should coldcall and almost never fold the hand on other streets. The read is very dependent on your opponents. For example at $100-$200 pokerstars a turnfold would be a mistake IMO in lots of situations.

Why did you raise at this stage BTW? If you wanted to get a read on your opponents act as your read tells you, if you raise for value, I would have waited till the turn or river to raise.

<blockquote>Als antwoord op:<hr />
Turn: (11.33 BB) 9 (3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero ?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read is that the possibillity of having the best hand on the turn after the cap is big enough, this doesn't change much for your read there the UTG+1 can raise with the intention of putting his last bet in and check-check the river if you fold. I would colcall in this case or reraise with the intention of checking the river.
If you think you are lost I would have folded on the turn.

Main point here is that the bet and raise don't change much in my read.

Regards,

Vulture

vulture

01-17-2005, 08:50 AM

I would fold very rarely BTW, in the described hand considering the preflop action and the fact that the opponents can both have good Q's or even less.

MicroBob

01-18-2005, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
AA (and QQ) is not an option because it would be a mistake IMO to slowplay the hand with two more people in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because YOU think slow-playing is bad here doesn't mean that other players wouldn't play it that way.

Putting one's own standards of play onto their opponent and assuming that they would play their hands the same way is a fairly common mistake.
You have to consider how THEY might (or do) play in various situations.

If you think that it's unlikely that THEY wouldn't slow-play here for some reason then that's fine.
But the fact that YOU wouldn't do it because YOU think it's incorrect is virtually meaningless.

The rest of your analysis has some points I agree with and a couple others I'm not so sure about.