AK river 4 flush

[bxpeter]

no reads...

this one shook me a little.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

if one person folded, i was going to call. if MP1 bet, i was thinking about checkraising.

[The Dude]

Looks fine to me. You shouldn't check-raise that river though. Villian's not going to fold a J on the river, let along any heart, so you're better off just calling if you smell a rat.

[bxpeter]

Thanks for the response.

BB had K9 and MP1 had 7Q. No hearts. MP1 took it.

This hand left me feeling very unsettled.

[bisonbison]

Reads?

[The Dude]

If you're never folding the winning hand on the river for one bet, you're not playing winning poker. Just because you lost this time doesn't mean that your hand is good here more than 1 in 10.5 times. When things like this happen, shrug your shoulders, adjust your reads on opponents, and go on to the next hand.

Good luck.

[Alexthegreat]

Bet the river, fold to a raise....I don't see anything wrong with a bet, because someone may fold a low heart, and you could get pushed off your hand by a bluff, (which is what happened)

Because of these two things, I like betting out and folding if it's back raised..

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
I like betting out and folding if it's back raised..

[/ QUOTE ]
Booo. Your hand is not going to be good very often here. Not only did the 4th flush card come, but it paired the second card on the board, so anybody w/ a J now beats you. Maybe if you were HU I could see investing another bet in case villian had a weaker A, but against two opponnets your hand is trash. Shrug your shoulders and let it go.

[Mr. Amanti]

yeah dude fold, betting out this river is like worse than anything i can think of right now

[DeeJ]

yuk this kind of hand really sucks /images/graemlins/smile.gif because you will see it (people trying to bluff flushes on the river against 2 opponents) probably once for every four or five times they really do have a heart. Which makes it profitable for them, but you don't really know where you're at /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I think I would have folded too, and made busy notes against these two villains afterwards as I cursed and jumped up and down /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Mr. Amanti]

[ QUOTE ]
yuk this kind of hand really sucks /images/graemlins/smile.gif because you will see it (people trying to bluff flushes on the river against 2 opponents) probably once for every four or five times they really do have a heart.

[/ QUOTE ]


once every four or five times???? what kind of games are u playing in, are there more than four suits in these decks that you play with?

[jordanx]

I don't think folding here is horrible. You might be good 1 in 10 times, but it's close.

Betting and folding to a raise isn't a bad line here if you are planning on calling anyways. It would take a lot for a player to bluff raise at this board and you might push a J off his hand.

After this hand, I'd feel good about being at the table though, both players took shitty hands way too far.

[jordanx]

I agree that against two opponents that are have called down to this river, his hand is looking pretty grim. But if he is planning on check calling, I'd say betting is better because just checking here announces 'I don't have a heart' and induces a bluff.

[DeeJ]

err, you should realise that the chances that neither of your opponents has a heart is 41%. Of those 41% times I would reckon one of your two opponents will bluff a heart some of the time (since they will be holding a heart half the time, it figures to work fairly often....).

I don't think that [1 in 4 or 1 in 5 times this happens in this situation] is an unreasonable claim. What would you put it at and why?

[Mr. Amanti]

if neither of the villans has a heart and is plaing 15-30 then what are they calling the turn bets with? a gutshot on a 3 flush board?



anyways in this case i believe it was a standard check and fold, maybe i'm way off base

your precentages are against random holdings, at this point in the hand the players are not holding random cards

[bxpeter]

the main question I had here was whether betting and folding to a raise was at all a decent play. I think I agree with whats already been said about that. The reason I didn't do it at the time though, was because I really wanted to show the hand down, and it seemed certain that I'd get raised.

Yes, this type of decision can be very read dependant, though I'm not sure I'd ever overcall no flush on a 4-flush board unless the pot was really huge and it was noted that one of the players was mentally incapacitated. The 2nd jack in this case just makes it worse.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
But if he is planning on check calling, I'd say betting is better because just checking here announces 'I don't have a heart' and induces a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]
You've just given a reason why you should check-call instead of betting.