A discussion of correct preflop play w/TT

[me454555]

I'm in the CO w/a pair of black Ts. UTG raises, 3 cold callers, I 3 bet. BB called UTG made it 4, we all called.

I'm starting to think that 3 betting w/TT in this situation is a waste b/c 1) theres probobly someone w/2 overs in the hand 2) w/all those callers, it does nothing to protect my hand 3) there is a fairly good chance that pfr could have me dominated w/a pair higher than TT.

In this game, the reads on these players were as follows, UTG was pretty solid, I hadn't seen him get out of line. 1 of the 2 callers was also pretty decent but the other 2 were very loose and somewhat aggressive.

Comments strongly appreciated.

[Redeye]

After you have a raise and that many cold callers, my typical action would be to cold call with TT or less and 3-bet JJ. I don't know if thats right, but I don't see a ton of value in 3-betting TT here.

[Piers]

Pump the pot as much as possable. Against six opponets your pot equity has to be way more than 17%.

[StellarWind]

With a sound PFR and a bunch of coldcallers I would normally coldcall. The preflop value doesn't seem to be there against a PFR that can be trusted to have an overpair or two overcards nearly all the time. Getting capped when you are dominated is obviously very expensive.

Postflop when you make your set it would be nice to have the blinds still in the hand. If you called you can expect the PFR to trap the field by betting the flop into your set. You probably won't get that if you 3-bet. You'll have to bet your own hand and the PFR may even insert a checkraise in front of the field.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Pump the pot as much as possable. Against six opponets your pot equity has to be way more than 17%.

[/ QUOTE ]
I only count four opponents in the pot at the time you need to decide about the 3-bet.

By saying 17% you are just ignoring all the money you lose when you get capped by an overpair.

[me454555]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pump the pot as much as possable. Against six opponets your pot equity has to be way more than 17%.

[/ QUOTE ]
I only count four opponents in the pot at the time you need to decide about the 3-bet.

By saying 17% you are just ignoring all the money you lose when you get capped by an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the essence of the dillemma thats going on in my head. On one hand I think "Even if I'm behind the pfr and his overpair, I've got plenty of other opponents that I'm ahead of" on the other hand I'm thinking "I'm only 50/50 at best against the UTG pfr, should I really be raising?

[Mike]

TT is a solid hand, but maybe not against a solid UTG raiser and three coldcallers? I think your possibility of dragging this pot has shrunk a bit. This is a good play against the clueless, not against this group as you describe them.

The first problem I see is you are certain to have an overcard on the board. The second concern is UTG being solid. UTG must know those aggressive players will at least coldcall. Then you have wonder where UTG thinks you fit in this hand? If he makes you solid too, you hve to put him on KK or above which makes you about a .02(?) dog against UTG.

The three aggressive players usually play agressively because they have the bankroll, not because they are slow. What sort of flop will not help one of those three but will help you?

I tend to think along the lines of what do they all hold that I can beat if no one is helped by the board? I don't see myself raising in this hand. I would coldcall see the flop and go from there.

[bernie]

4 players to you in a raised pot and a solid guy raising UTG? Looks like a good place to just coldcall and see the flop.

However, 1 benefit to 3 betting is it will be a bit harder to put you on a set when you hit it. But with this many going to the flop, I wouldn't worry about that. These guys will likely pay you off enough as it is.

b

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
If he makes you solid too, you hve to put him on KK or above which makes you about a .02(?) dog against UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]


?????? How do you get .02?


equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 80.9429 % [ 00.81 00.00 ] { AA-KK }
Hand 2: 19.0571 % [ 00.19 00.00 ] { TsTc }

[mowz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he makes you solid too, you hve to put him on KK or above which makes you about a .02(?) dog against UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]


?????? How do you get .02?


equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 80.9429 % [ 00.81 00.00 ] { AA-KK }
Hand 2: 19.0571 % [ 00.19 00.00 ] { TsTc }

[/ QUOTE ]


I think he meant .2

[arkady]

Most of the time, not sure what it is % wise,, you will be needing to flop a set. Assuming that this would be a correct stipulation and the 3-bet does little to isolate, I smooth call.

[Mike Gallo]

....

do a search for this thread. The 10 10 debate comes up often. It used to come up with Jacks.

I will give you my suggestion for this exact hand, given your reads.

Against what I call a solid opponent who has raised preflop gets three limpers and I have 10 10. By solid I will define the solid players utg raising standards as AA AKs AKo KK AQs QQ JJ AJs KQs AQo. Sometimes any pair over 55 sometimes any suited Ace sometimes AQ or AJ off.

Under the gun could have overcards and not an overpair from the way you described the rest of the players. They all might have overcards. Since you described them as loose aggressive a higher pair then 10's would reraise.

In this case I would not raise even though I had the button because I would not close action. Someone could cap before it got back to me. I would flat call. I have postion for the rest of the hand.

Sometimes I will three bet with 10 10. However that is from a later position. Most solid players I know pay attention to position.

[Moss Factor]

There are two routes to increasing your EV in the hand. One way is to raise and get more money in with a pot equity greater than 20%, which I'm sure you have. The other way is to try and get overcalls to increase your implied odds. If you can assume to get a couple of the remaining players to call when they wouldn't have called facing a 3-bet, you have increased your implied odds. You also get more value from you set, as you committed less money to seeing a flop, but are more than likely going to win just as much (if not more) after you hit your set.

However, you are also increasing your implied odds subtly by raising. Lets look at why you should go for the 3-bet. A set isn't guaranteed to win a pot against 5-7 players, so even if you hit your set, you very well could still lose. You have a pot equity edge by raising. I don't think you want any more customers here, so you can try and limit the rest of the people joining the hand to as few as possible by putting in a raise. You'll feel like a fool when you go for the overcall and the BB who cold-called the raise takes it down with 56o after flopping a gutshot or some other longshot hand takes it down after being given the correct odds. Limit the number of players in the hand. With 5-6 players going to the flop for 2BB each, you'll get paid off if you make your set, there is no doubt about that. The only thing you have to worry about is winning the pot when you complete it.

You would raise for pot equity value and to close out the cold callers. If you can get one of the original cold callers to fold to the UTG's cap (I know, probably not likely, but it's a possibility), then that's a huge boon as it adds dead money to the pot.

Overall, though I think you want to go for the cold call, simply because you are getting the best value on your draw (which may not be a draw afterall). You'll be risking less to win approx the same amount, and it makes it so if someone is facing 2 bets cold it's a mistake to call with a gutshot or backdoor draw. The best way to make a set hold up is to keep the pot small so that you can pray that you'll get a few longshot draws out of the pot on the flop, or the turn. My vote goes for calling.

If you think I'm wrong in my reasoning, discuss.

[Mike]

I looked into the air and pulled down the first numbers I saw? I was thinking one thing and typing another. Brain fart, thanks for catching it.