Turn play for discussion here.

[me454555]

Bellagio 8/16

I'm in EP2 and limp w/A /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

2 players limp behind me and sb raises. BB folds the rest call. This is clearly a mistake by me to openlimp in this game w/A2s but I was running on only a few hours of sleep and screwed up.

(9sbs) Flop: Q54 (1 heart) pfr bets, I call, 1 player folds and the loose limper in LP calls.

(6bbs) Turn: 2(nonheart) pfr bets, I...

Rest of hand to come. Please don't comment on my pf play. The focus on this hand is the turn play and how do you play it against a pfr and someone left to act behind you. I'll post the river play and disucssion about it later

[me454555]

I'm surprised this thread only got 10 views, this is a common enough situation and one that I think a lot of newer players could learn something from.

[Entity]

I think it's closer to a fold than a call now. You picked up two potential outs, but in doing so, you have discounted your Ace outs substantially and your gutshot outs are now suspect as well, since you may be drawing to a chop.

6:1 with two 2 outs, maybe 1.5 A outs, and 2 gutshot outs leaving you with 6:1, needing 7.36:1.

Rob

[thirddan]

I would fold it...

Your outs are very tainted...

if you hit a 3 for your gutshot you may be chopping so that isnt great, and if you arent chopping and are up against KK/QQ you will probably not get action because villain will fear you have an A...count as 1/2 outs

If you hit a 2 you will probably win (unless you are against QQ)...2 outs

If you hit an A you could still lose to AQ...counts as 2 outs (assuming nobody has a 3?)

I guess you have between 5/6 outs and getting 7-1...you are also not sure if the player behind you will raise or even call so that makes a call even more questionable since you don't close the action...

Perhaps you were considering a raise? if so, i really don't like it...

[me454555]

Why do you say 1.5 A outs? Unless he's got exactly AQ I have 3 good ace outs. I'd say its more like 2.5 A outs b/c he could have KQ, QJs, AK, or KK. QQ is an outside possibility that I'm discounting b/c if my oppoent has QQ I still have 4 outs to my strait so I'm essentially trading one set of outs for another.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you say 1.5 A outs? Unless he's got exactly AQ I have 3 good ace outs. I'd say its more like 2.5 A outs b/c he could have KQ, QJs, AK, or KK. QQ is an outside possibility that I'm discounting b/c if my oppoent has QQ I still have 4 outs to my strait so I'm essentially trading one set of outs for another.

[/ QUOTE ]
You've got a loose limper behind you as well. An Ace puts 4 to a straight on board, which needs to be a consideration; add that to the fact that you'll be up against AQ sometimes, QQ sometimes, and AA sometimes, and it's worth devaluing your Ace outs. You've got Ace outs against JJ, KK, and AK, and you've only got two Ace outs against AK.

Saying 1.5 was basically a short way to figure in the times that there is only one ace left in the deck (raiser has AA or limper has A3/A4/A5), the times that there are two left, and the times that there are three left, but they aren't really "outs" (if limper has a 3, or PFR has QQ).

Rob

[DeeJ]

[ QUOTE ]
(6bbs) Turn: 2(nonheart) pfr bets, I...


[/ QUOTE ]

I want to know what you would have done if it wasn't a non-heart /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[me454555]

I see. This is one of the reasons I chose to post this hand. You can make a case for folding, calling, or raising here. It is very interesting to see someone else's insight as I have just noticed something that I missed.

[me454555]

I called like a wimp and watched the button call behind me. River was a 6. PFR checked, I checked as did the other player.

PFR shows AKo for A high
I show A2s for 1 pair of 2s
LP shows T6 for 1 pair of 6s and drags the pot.

My original thought for disucssion was wondering how many people would raise the turn here to get it heads up w/a pfr. This would esentially be a free showdown play b/c I don't expect him to 3 bet me and I also expect him to check to me on the river unless he improves. I also thought this play would eliminate the LP caller who had a very live draw against me almost regardless of his hand.

After posters like Entity brought to my attention the lack of outs I had, I now consider the decision between folding and raising much closer than before. Originally, I didn't consider how the 2 on the board gave my the pfr a split pot for if he had an ace. I also failed to consider my opponents hand when evaluating outs. I saw 6.5 bbs in the pot and figured I had 9 outs. Now I see that I really had something like 5 outs. Regardless of the outcome of this hand, I think folding was probobly the way to go w/raising a close 2nd and calling being a distant 3rd. If my opponent was a little more aggressive in betting overcards and had a wider range of preflop raising hands, this might be a raising situation. Thanx to the few posters who contributed to this thread. I definatly learned something here.