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DrPhysic
01-16-2005, 03:41 PM
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1700)
BB (t2030)
UTG (t1365)
UTG+1 (t3390)
MP1 (t2705)
Hero (t1405)
MP3 (t3240)
CO (t2455)
Button (t1090)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t100, MP1 folds, Hero calls t100, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls t100, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t500) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t990</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls t590.

Turn: (t2680) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t2680) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t2680

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has 8d 8h (three of a kind, eights).
Button has Js Ac (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Button wins t2680. </font>

I might have pushed on the flop. Maybe button would not have gone in if I pushed first. I think he would have though, if he’s going to push after a bet and a raise.

After his push, should I have folded a trip to a monochrome board? Is there a way out of this other than lose all the chips?

Doc

codewarrior
01-16-2005, 03:56 PM
I fold to the re-raise here, Doc - consider your company in this one, push yourself or fold pre flop...

DrPhysic
01-16-2005, 04:00 PM
code,

I can't see pushing preflop with a mid pair in mp.

I can see pushing on the flop with the trip, which is probably what I should have done. Although, I think he calls the push and beats me anyway, if he's going to push after a bet and a raise.

It is really whether I should have folded to his push that I wondered about. He got to see the flop for free, because I don't like raising small/mid pairs from mp. So he could have had a 4fl, a 4st, 2p, a big pair... anything.

Maybe the answer is don't limp with mid pairs from mp, only play small/mid pairs from lp, then raise with them.

Doc

adanthar
01-16-2005, 04:04 PM
Have to push the flop; there's 700 in the pot already and anyone that calls any kind of raise is seeing the river. The minimum raise is the worst play possible because of this (not to mention UTG+1 has odds to see the turn now).

You can't possibly fold to the button push, even if he flashes you two clubs.

DrPhysic
01-16-2005, 04:15 PM
I had not thought about this in terms of pot odds. You are right. I may not be giving button enough odds (2.25/1) to make a call, but my raise has given UTG+1 4.5/1. He can call with almost anything.

You're right. I had to push.

Doc

Toly
01-16-2005, 04:29 PM
I'd fold after seeing that re-raise on the flop. It is usually telling you that he flopped a flush or that he is on a flush draw, with the latter being more likely since someone flopping the nut flush would probably slow play the hand.

Either way, I think that even if you would have pushed here, he would have called you anyways.


Sorry, I was wrong. I think that if he would have only called your bet, then you could put him on a flush, especially after that clubs fell on the turn. But when he went all-in on the flop, he was probably on a draw and wanted to gamble. So calling was the right play in my opinion.

Benholio
01-16-2005, 04:58 PM
Well, here are all of the hands you could be up against (within reason):

Made flush: 35% chance to win.
Flush draw: 71% chance to win.
Overpair w/club: 66% chance to win.
Overpair w/o club: 90% chance to win.

The flush draw is much more likely than the made flush, for purely mathematical reasons. You are very likely to be getting your money in with a lead here, and you did. I get my money in the pot in this spot every time.

FirstClash
01-28-2005, 06:48 PM
I might not know what I'm talking about here. But... They guy on the flush draw re-raises post-flop to your bet. This is called a semi-bluff. Right? (Since his hand isn't the best hand at the moment but he has a lot of outs to improve to the best hand.)

According to: Theory of Poker by David Sklansky

page 105, paragraph 3,

"It turns out there aren't many defenses against the semi-bluff, which is why it is such a powerful play. Frequently the best play against a possible semi-bluff is to fold, especially when the pot is small. Allright, your opponent has beaten you. He may even have made you throw away the best hand. But if you call his bet, he has 3 other ways of beating you. He may in fact have had the best hand when he bet. He may have been semi-bluffing, but he now out draws you. Or he may have been semi-bluffing, but he proceeds to catch scare cards that force you to fold. Therefore, though you may have thrown away what was the best hand at the moment, still your opponent had too many ways of beating you to justify your calling his bet."

Isn't this applicable to this hand?

rachelwxm
01-29-2005, 12:35 AM
Doc, I agree with others. I think you have to push this flop, button is getting enough odds to draw his flush assuming sb would call your raise but he decide to push his nut draw instead.

I don't think you can fold on this flop with your stack size, the chances that they are bluffing + your extra FH outs make you pot commited once you reraise on flop.

But I don't know if that would change results at all.

Just my opinion. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jason Strasser
01-29-2005, 06:36 AM
Oi vey dios mio,

There are so many problems in my mind with this hand and the responses to it.

Preflop is borderline. A read on UTG+1 would be helpful. Is he the type to limp in w/ a big hand here? I think your limp behind is Ok, but keep in mind a few factors. a) The more limpers, the more chances a stack behind you will make a move at the pot. b) raising or even shoving all in isnt horrible here, but isnt so great either. c) your stack is a very awkward size. On most flops you wont feel so good.

On the flop you have top set. UTG bets 200 into a 500 pot. and you have 1300 behind. Any raise you make is likely pot committing. UTG is not pot committed at this point. If opponent flopped a flush, you want to find some sort of miraculous way to fold the flop, or you want to get all your chips in and play the set omaha style (like a draw).

But when its in the heat of battle in the hand, you really wont be able to put the bad guy on a specific hand, but rather a range of hands. Judging by typical UTG standards, he could have a pair and a flush draw, a set, a flush, or a flush draw. This is a wide range of hands, and you can probably add the category 'absolute crap. Weighting them appropriately is obviously not an exact science, but at the point the opponent leads 100 into you, you should have a fair representation of each type of hand in your head as possible opposition hands.

I think, because you are likely to get called by many hands you beat, and because if you do get a call from a flush-- you have plenty of redraws and 2 streets to get there--you should shove all in on the flop. Any raise that is less than that will pot commit you.

Your min raise is really bad IMO because what if you get only a call and you see an ugly turn, you may fold when you would've had the chance to fill up on the river. I just shove it in on the flop. The problem often with throwing big raises in a SNG is that you will only get called if you are beat. This is not an issue this hand.

-Jason

DrPhysic
01-29-2005, 08:07 AM
Thanks for reply, Jason. As you indicate, I was not comfortable with my options with the hand from the get go. Whether I should limp or push pre-flop was a consideration. I later wondered, frankly, if I should be playing a mid pair from MP at all after a previous limp. Given that the decision was limp and look at a flop, I had pretty much concluded in reviewing this after the fact that the only real option I had was to push on the flop.

Thx for feedback,

Doc