Preflop raises in O8

[Nick709]

I am starting this thread because of the all the passionate opinions on this topic and would like to welcome all to give their opinions so we can have a healthy debate about this topic.

I'll go first:
I pay attention to raises that players make from certain positions to try to get a line on their play, just like I pay attention to what they limp with, when I can of course. I have noticed that some players raise with A2xx, some only with A23x some only with AA2x or AA3x, some people raise with 4 suited big cards some with ridiculous hands like 5678. What ties this all together for me is most of these people are not mixing up their play and are raising preflop with the same kinds of hands over and over. This type of raiser is easily picked off in a game where his oppenents are paying enough attention, although they may do well at low stakes loose games it would be hard to step up limits and be continuously succesful.

Then there are the players who just like to raise preflop all the time, weather it be KK82os or A678ds. Against these opponents I merely suggest you not try and isolate with a hand that will be only marginally better than theirs heads up, but instead do more cold calling and invite other players into the pot (Unless of course you have a hand like AAK3 or something that does extremely well heads up).
These players are very good for they game as they can help you get more money into the pot before the flop without revealing the strength of your hand. Also with "live ones" such as these you know more clearly when you can raise your nut low on the river without fear of getting quartered.

Next are the class of player I am trying to be like, the type that mixes up his play just enough so that his opponents cannot put him on a hand. This is very important in 08 I beleive because in tougher games you make your money by correctly assesing the situation and by having your opponents misread it.

I sometimes raise in early position with a hand like AK23 sometimes with a hand like AKQJds, and sometimes even with a hand like 2345ds and just as many times as I raise, I limp with these hands. There are only a couple hands I will always raise with like AA24 or AA23ds, AA34ds also. I also raise to get position which may or may not have much to do with my holding. Do you see how this keeps my opponents guessing as to what I'm holding? Do you see why this is a good thing?

Feel free to flame, praise, respond to, or just plain ignore. I would like to hear everyones opinions on this topic.

~Anchor

[Matt Ruff]

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There are only a couple hands I will always raise with like AA24 or AA23ds, AA34ds also.

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I would never raise with these in early or middle position, unless it's a maniac table -- why drive out customers when you've got a premium hand?

-- M. Ruff

[Poker Broker]

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There are only a couple hands I will always raise with like AA24 or AA23ds, AA34ds also.

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I would never raise with these in early or middle position, unless it's a maniac table -- why drive out customers when you've got a premium hand?

-- M. Ruff

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Exactly. These hands are too powerfull to be cutting down the competition from early position. If I absolutely knew someone would re-raise and get a caller or two then I might do it - and three bet after that. But generally limp with those hands.

[Poker Broker]

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There are only a couple hands I will always raise with like AA24 or AA23ds, AA34ds also.

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I would never raise with these in early or middle position, unless it's a maniac table -- why drive out customers when you've got a premium hand?

-- M. Ruff

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Exactly. These hands are too powerfull to be cutting down the competition from early position. If I absolutely knew someone would re-raise and get a caller or two then I might do it - and three bet after that. But generally limp with those hands.

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Sorry, four bet after that if someone does raise. But I'd still limp with this hand from early or middle position.

[johnnybeef]

unless i am at an extremely loose passive table, i will rarely raise in early position. the only reasons to raise preflop in omaha is to gain position or build a pot. both of which have to be done in late position.

[2the9s]

I raise in loose games for very different reasons than I raise in tight games. This post pertains only to loose games.

EP: In EP(and to a lesser extent MP) I'm trying to accomplish 2 things before the flop with my big hands. 1) I want to lure as many players as I can into the pot, and 2) I want those who enter the pot to put in as much money as I can squeeze out of them while I have the best of it. I feel the best way to accomplish this is by limp/raising. There are 3 types of hands I do with this:
1) classy 2 way hands
2) extremely powerful low hands (A23x)
3) The very best high hands in multi-way pots

Examples of the first type are A2xx with a suited ace or hands like A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, and also highly coordinated hands containing an A3 like A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. However, I will just call a raise behind me with the highly coordinated A3 hands if the raise comes from a tight raiser.

One caveat that I'll add to this is that in very loose and very passive games where the pot is highly unlikely to be raised AND players are cold calling raises with junk hands, I'll just go ahead and raise. Under these conditions I'll also raise it up with A23x

The third type of hands are double suited aces with 2 other coordinated high cards like A /images/graemlins/heart.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I'll only limp/raise if the pot is multi-way (5 handed plus), and I will never bring this hand in for a raise in a loose game. Admittedly, limp/raising with these types of hands is just barely better than break-even, but I feel it's a good way to mix-up my game without costing me money.

I will always call with dry A2 hands like A /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

If the pot has been raised in front of me I will always just cold call, and if the raise comes from a tight player I'll throw away my coordianted A3 hands that I'll sometimes limp/raise with.

MP: Whether or not I raise in MP is basically a function of how many players I think are going to see the flop. If I can tell that the pot is probably going to be multiway, I'm raising with any A2 or highly coordinated hand containing A3. However, if tight players have limped, then I'm not raising with the lesser holdings like a dry A2.

If the pot may be shorthanded, then I'm limping with these hands to try to lure others to limp in behind me with worse hands. If I'm lucky enough to have the pot raised behind me, I'll limp raise with the same hands I would from EP under the same conditions.

I'm generally just going to call raises instead of 3-betting, but in the rare case that the pot is already raised AND multiway then I'll throw in another raise with the classy 2 way hands and the very powerful low hands. Just like in ep, I'm being careful with the coordinated A3 hands.

LP and blinds: By now the pot is already multiway or already shorthanded, so limping to promote a multi-way pot serves little purpose. With A2xx or better I'm raising, but again I'll just call if tight players limped early. I'm also raising the very powerful high hands if the pot is already 5+. In additional I'll also relax my standards a bit and raise a hand with A3 and a suited ace as long as no tight players are in the pot.

As with MP, I'm generally cold calling raises instead of 3 betting. The big exception is when the pot is already multi-way.

I'll also add that one thing I'm not concerned about in loose games is being easy to read. In loose games, the tight players are generally not going to draw to less than the nuts, and since the pots are almost always multi-way the aren't going to have a chance to outplay me because the calling stations in the pot won't let the tight player get away with it. The calling stations on the other hand are unlikely to fold a marginal hand even if they do have a read on me (which is unlikely since they aren't good players.)

All that said, I think the strategy of limp raising is fairly effective at mixing up my play because if I limp and no one raises the other players won't know if I hold a monster or a hand that's just barely worth a call.

To quote Buzz, this is all "just my opinion." I'm interested to hear what others think of my raising strategy.

[gergery]

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Do you see how this keeps my opponents guessing as to what I'm holding?

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Yes.

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Do you see why this is a good thing?

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No. Everytime you mix up your play to add deception, you give up something -- value from betting correctly. And at lower limits it's not worth it.

In the looser games upto 10-20 you have 4-6 people seeing the flop. You don't need deception then, because the guy betting is the one with the nuts or close to it, and the guy calling is the one with a draw to a better hand.

At higher levels like 20-40, you need deception, but even then its not that important because you're usually head to head and your opponent has either AAwith low card, or A2/A3 plus something else.

Deception in O8 is overrated if you're from a holdem background
--Greg

[Buzz]

2the9s - Excellent post.

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There are 3 types of hands I do with this:
1) classy 2 way hands
2) extremely powerful low hands (A23x)
3) The very best high hands in multi-way pots

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I like limp/raising with type one and type two hands, and will also sometimes limp raise with hands that are weaker than type two hands, but are related to type two hands (primarily low hands). (I think of A23X as primarily a low hand because it wins more for low than it wins for high or scoops).

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The third type of hands are double suited aces with 2 other coordinated high cards like A A Q J . I'll only limp/raise if the pot is multi-way (5 handed plus), and I will never bring this hand in for a raise in a loose game. Admittedly, limp/raising with these types of hands is just barely better than break-even, but I feel it's a good way to mix-up my game without costing me money.

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I spent the evening working on type three hands and have reached about the same conclusion as you. To limp/raise with type three hands in the games we’re talking about, you need five or more opponents, and they need to play no tighter after the flop than they would play without the pre-flop raise. I think with four or less opponents, you do better by seeing the flop as cheaply as possible with type three hands. But with five or more opponents, who will stick around, looks like you want to jamb.

Perhaps I place too much emphasis on not giving away my hand, but good players read hands! And they're good at it!

If you play the hands as proposed, it's pretty hard for anyone to put you on cards. You're probably correct about most players in a low limit games not being good enough at reading your cards well enough to worry about them. (Actually I don't worry about them, but I do want to keep my game from getting sloppy).

Buzz