Would you tell someone about 2+2? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

einbert

01-16-2005, 03:03 AM

I have told my friends who are serious about poker and who want to become good players about it. However, I would never say "two plus two" or "david sklansky" or anything else dangerous on an internet table. I don't mind my friends improving and becoming better poker players, but I don't want the general poker population to improve. It isn't difficult for someone who wants to learn how to play poker to find out how, with google, twoplustwo, etc. Any player who really wants to conquer the game is probably eventually going to find twoplustwo and their books. On the other hand, mentioning it on an internet table probably wouldn't be devastating, simply because most "fish" don't really try to improve their poker game (afaik)--they see the game as a fun gamble, not an investment or something that can be conquered. I just wouldn't take the risk, though.

TStoneMBD

01-16-2005, 03:31 AM

the players who are actually willing to take the time to learn the game deserve to, i dont think its fair of you to withhold information from the small populus of players that fit this category. most people that you link to twoplustwo.com are just going to skim it over and say "nice site." theyll never look at it again. either that or theyll just rant with the leeches in the WPT forum.

cnfuzzd

01-16-2005, 04:52 AM

i find it amazing that few of my friends that i tell about this website actually end up making it here, yet they all want me to tell them how to be a good player.

peace

john nickle

afk

01-16-2005, 05:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i find it amazing that few of my friends that i tell about this website actually end up making it here, yet they all want me to tell them how to be a good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I have a friend who wants to become a good player (at least that was the case when he heard how much money I had made playing micro games). I keep telling him, "2+2! micro forum! sign up! read! post hands!" yet nothing... I've just kinda given up. He's the type of guy who could be a great player if he applied himself. But if he doesn't have the drive then that's ok too.

TStoneMBD

01-16-2005, 06:04 AM

same problem

Mr. Graff

01-16-2005, 10:11 AM

A friend yes. But you have got to be a complete moron if you tell total strangers at the tables anything that may result in them becoming better players.

I prefer the pool of fish to be as large as possible. I know not everyone feels this way though.

BarronVangorToth

01-16-2005, 10:14 AM

You first have to assume that not everyone on this board stumbled here by randomly typing into the address bar on Explorer... Sure, Google, the books, happenstance, fine -- but lots of us are here because of being recommended the site.

I've "played poker" since University but at no real competent level, I've always played a strange tight game, so I managed to be a winning player to the point where I could play for ten hours at a casino and make enough to cover what my gas was. So.... it was a free hobby. Which in and of itself is terrific and I've been blessed in that I know many people lose tons of money in this game and they can't afford to.

End digression.

Anyway, about a year ago I was playing on some 5-10-kill game at Foxwoods with a random group of people, of which was this one guy who was far better than everyone else (me included). I forgot what he won but he won quite a bit AND he wasn't like the other people I had seen who had won a lot via flipping over random nonsense and getting lucky (you know those people who lose $500 five times in a row and then win $1,000 the next time they go).

He picked up and left. Yay! (He was a nice guy and all but you're never upset when the best player at the table leaves.)

Ten minutes later my big blind was coming up and I needed to use the restroom, so I hopped off the table and walked over to the bathroom, and there's the guy, waiting at the cage to cash in his winnings. We make random small talk and he out of nowhere tells me about this site, saying he thinks I could apply some of the stuff from here.

Coincidentally, I think I already had a number of the 2+2 books (untouched or, at the very most, skimmed through with no application).

But a player I saw as a huge step above my game recommended this place.

I owe him a thanks if I ever run into him again.

I avoid strategy like the plague at the table but someone outside of the game if we're talking and I think it's applicable, I have no problem mentioning 2+2 as I think of it as a public service -- and repaying the debt I owe.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

Stealthy

01-16-2005, 11:17 AM

I certainly wouldn't suggest this site or any of the top poker books to any but my closest friends. And as none of my friends play poker that means nobody. Having said that I don't think it would do a ton of harm if your average player brought themselves a poker book. There is a world of difference between reading for instance The Theory of Poker and picking up a few ideas, which is what 95% of its readers would do and really studying it and learning, and then applying the concepts therein.

One thing I have never shirked from in my quest to become a highly profitable player is the study needed. It takes hard work and hours and hours of continual study to get really good at this game for all but the most gifted players. Not many players have either the desire or the disipline to slog there guts out day after day in pursuit of excellence.

My point, if I haven't made it already, is that it won't make a vast amount of difference to most players what you tell em. They might take a gander over to this site and buy a good book but whilst this may improve them a little, thay have miles to go before they are catching me up.

Having said that why take the chance of them getting even a little better, no point costing yourselves an extra bet when they make a correct fold. If someone asks about my success, as they did yesterday, I just said I was having a lucky day but lose most of the time! Hey, we are poker players, we are supposed to lie!

JRegs

01-17-2005, 02:11 AM

I wouldn't mention anything 2+2 related at a table with a bunch of people I don't know (like when I play online). However, if I'm playing a small game with some friends I'd suggest it....because they're my friends. But that's the only case /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

tpir90036

01-17-2005, 03:03 AM

If someone asked me for advice I would tell them to go read a book and let them figure it out on their own.... I think that's the best way to do it.... figuring it out on your own that is.

Anyone who was serious about poker would eventually find 2+2 by themselves.

REL18

01-17-2005, 03:50 AM

This is exactly what everyboyd should be thinking no other comments are needed.
I have told my friends who are serious about poker and who want to become good players about it. However, I would never say "two plus two" or "david sklansky" or anything else dangerous on an internet table. I don't mind my friends improving and becoming better poker players, but I don't want the general poker population to improve. It isn't difficult for someone who wants to learn how to play poker to find out how, with google, twoplustwo, etc. Any player who really wants to conquer the game is probably eventually going to find twoplustwo and their books. On the other hand, mentioning it on an internet table probably wouldn't be devastating, simply because most "fish" don't really try to improve their poker game (afaik)--they see the game as a fun gamble, not an investment or something that can be conquered. I just wouldn't take the risk, though.

TwoShedsJackson

01-17-2005, 06:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
However, I would never say "two plus two" or "david sklansky" or anything else dangerous on an internet table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that like saying Candyman in front of the mirror?

david sklansky, David Sklansky, DAVID SKLANSKY!!!!!

ACW

01-17-2005, 08:21 AM

While I certainly wouldn't mention it in an aquarium, I have once recommended it to another player who I'd played against online quite regularly and got quite chatty with.
Since he was a decent player, and we had developed a mutual respect and cautiousness towards each other, I didn't see it as a problem. I didn't reveal anything until we agreed on a meaninglessly low stakes heads-up tournament so we could have a private chat.

axioma

01-17-2005, 11:01 AM

friends only.

anyone mentioning books/stratagey/this forum at the tables is an utter moron.

JeffO

01-17-2005, 12:14 PM

Online? NEVER.

A friend? yes.

ACW

01-17-2005, 12:34 PM

You seem to be implying you can't have online friends....

PE101

01-17-2005, 01:35 PM

I voted no on the poll, but there's more to the answer.

I would never try to improve someone's play AT THE TABLE.
If someone asked me any other time, I'd be happy to tell them how to get better - just not at the table. I don't really want anyone at the table to think I've ever read a book!

That reminds me of a story...
I was playing a STT on Party when a player said something about "Doyle".

I said "Who's Doyle?"
He replied "BRUNSON!!!"
About 15 seconds later I said "Just kidding"
The guy said "I didn't know what to think..."

That's probably the most I've admitted to knowing while at the table.

AncientPC

01-17-2005, 01:50 PM

Friend? Yes.

Stranger? No.

Bluffoon

01-17-2005, 03:50 PM

I think the more people that know about this site the better. It will encourage people to play and most of them will play badly and lose.

Some will do well, and they will brag to all their friends, and their friends will come here, and so on....

Twoplustwo should advertise during the superbowl.

johnnybeef

01-17-2005, 04:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If someone asked me for advice I would tell them to go read a book and let them figure it out on their own.... I think that's the best way to do it.... figuring it out on your own that is.

Anyone who was serious about poker would eventually find 2+2 by themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely true...any poker player who is serious enough to want to improve their game will start reading some books and find a 2+2 book with this website posted on it. just like i did.

klagett

01-17-2005, 06:16 PM

I also found the forums from the back of HPFAP with HPFAP being recommended by somebody on ICC. (internet chess club) for those who don't know.

sellthekids

01-17-2005, 09:26 PM

If someone asked me for poker advice, I'd tell them to just watch Celebrity Poker Showdown /images/graemlins/laugh.gif. Actually, I find Phil Gordon's commentary to be decent when I can stand to watch the show. Probably better to just recommend watching WPT /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

cowboyzfan

01-17-2005, 09:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If someone asked me for poker advice, I'd tell them to just watch Celebrity Poker Showdown /images/graemlins/laugh.gif. Actually, I find Phil Gordon's commentary to be decent when I can stand to watch the show. Probably better to just recommend watching WPT /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

he actually wrote a pretty good book too (for newbies). In fact, if you told the newbie to buy it you would be helping them a lot. And yes, it sends people here.

TripleH68

01-18-2005, 01:27 AM

My answer is "it depends." Usually if somebody asks me where they can get help I direct them to the books. If the books do not direct them here...too bad for them.

ZeeJustin

01-18-2005, 03:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Friend? Yes.

Stranger? No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same. If it came up in conversation w/ a stranger, I wouldn't lie, but I would never personally bring it up, especially at the table. As for friends, I always advocate this site, as well as most 2+2 books out there.

ACW

01-18-2005, 08:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the more people that know about this site the better. It will encourage people to play and most of them will play badly and lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

I once heard it said that casinos love all the TV programs about blackjack card counters as it encourages lots of people to try it, and the vast majority of them fail.

Ghazban

01-18-2005, 12:24 PM

I'm surprised by the number of "no" responses. The question includes "if you were asked..." and I think that's key. If somebody seriously asks me how they can improve their game, I'll certainly point them in the direction of this forum, books, etc. 90% of those people will never follow through and come here or buy a book and the 10% who do will not necessarily invest the time and effort necessary to improve significantly anyway.

This isn't some sort of exclusive club (hell, they let ME in). People who want to improve will find the information they need and, if this site works for them, they'll find it and use it. Whether or not I (or anyone else) is the one to tell them is irrelevant. We all make our money from the thousands of other players who AREN'T willing to take the time to study the game and improve. Refraining from telling the small percentage of people who ask for help will not improve anybody's bottom line in the long run.

axioma

01-18-2005, 01:18 PM

"The question includes "if you were asked..." and I think that's key. If somebody seriously asks me how they can improve their game, I'll certainly point them in the direction of this forum, books, etc."

would you also warn your opponent of an impending mate whilst playing chess, if they asked you nicely?

Ghazban

01-18-2005, 01:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"The question includes "if you were asked..." and I think that's key. If somebody seriously asks me how they can improve their game, I'll certainly point them in the direction of this forum, books, etc."

would you also warn your opponent of an impending mate whilst playing chess, if they asked you nicely?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's different because that is affecting the game we're currently in. I wouldn't talk any kind of serious strategy at the poker table but, if approached after a session about where he could get better, I'd tell someone about this site, books, etc.

axioma

01-18-2005, 01:37 PM

surely youve heard the term 'poker is one long game'? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

i guess i just dont see that POV. the person you tell might end up telling 10 people, etc. etc...

why contribute, in however small a way, to making the games tougher? what could you possibly hope to accomplish?

friends of course are another matter, id help them in any way i could (off the table).

k8as8ey

01-18-2005, 01:43 PM

Words of Lancey Howard, "The price you paid was to see my cards, lessons are extra."

Ghazban

01-18-2005, 01:51 PM

Well, you want the fish to continue to come back, right? If you appear standoffish and miserly with your poker knowledge, that won't make them want to play with you. Just because you tell someone about this site doesn't by any means imply that they will ever get around to coming here and, even if they do, that also doesn't mean that they will take the time to read and study their game. For those that do have the dedication to work on their game, they'll find ways to do that whether I tell them about this site or not.

I believe that the damage to my bottom line from the few people who improve their game solely by following my recommendations is small. On the other hand, having an easygoing, willing-to-help personality is quite useful in getting people to want to play in games I'm in (and this helps my bottom line quite a bit).

axioma

01-18-2005, 01:58 PM

you can appear friendly and easygoing without helping your opponents become better players. surely that accomplishes both ends?

Ghazban

01-18-2005, 02:04 PM

I just don't think you're giving anything away by mentioning this site. Unless you're online when you say it, they probably won't even remember to go check it out.

A question for you, then-- do you post in the strategy forums and, if so, why do you help people that are already here? Does finding this site instantly make them worthy of your hoarded poker knowledge?

If you don't want people to know about this site, I assume its because you don't want them to get better. Why do you want people already here to get better?

jnalpak

01-18-2005, 02:28 PM

as someone who just started reading the 2+2 forum i would mixed in giving out this info. I have been reading sklansky for some months now and knew about the site right away but waited until i felt i was ready for other peoples opinions not to swing my game one way or another.

I would give it out to people who are serious about there game and ALREADY have a game. this way they will take much more from this site then someone who just plays for fun.

Cleveland Guy

01-18-2005, 03:43 PM

I'm not telling the average joe stranger - no.

But if it's a friend, or a player I know is already top notch and that I resepect, I think it's wortwhile, cause I would appreciate sharing my thoughts with them, and hearing their thoughts.

I enjoy when you play against a 2+2ers and can exchange thoughts on the hand minutes after it was played, without the whole table knowing your conversation.

axioma

01-18-2005, 04:13 PM

"A question for you, then-- do you post in the strategy forums and, if so, why do you help people that are already here?"

I was anticipating this argument. Yes I do. Theres a big difference between people that are here already, and those that are blissfully unaware that there is actually more to the game than they might have first thought.

Additionally, since I benift from the site, it is only right to 'give back' somewhat. When you pass on advice to random person X after a game or whenever else, you stand to make nothing back - only lose.

Ghazban

01-18-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Theres a big difference between people that are here already, and those that are blissfully unaware that there is actually more to the game than they might have first thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more with this. Those that are "blissfully unaware" are not the people who are asking for places to get more info on playing profitably. I wouldn't recommend going out of one's way to advertise this site, but people putting any serious effort into improving will find it whether you tell them about it or not so, from my perspective, if they ask I have no problem telling them.

KaiShin

01-19-2005, 03:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Friend? Yes.

Stranger? No.

[/ QUOTE ]
Quoted for truth.

jimymat

01-19-2005, 03:42 AM

...there is no fight club.
Somebody once asked me about the site an I acted like it was a figment of their imagination. It never really existed.
I dont see the advantage to wising up the fish. If people are serious about the game they will find us.
Its interesting to see Harrington divulge so much info in his book. Seems like his job will become a little bit harder with the WSOP. I know hes banking on his real estate and stocks so maybe he doesnt care about the knowledge hes giving his opponent. I guess its the next step in a pros career when youve come that far.

jwombles

01-19-2005, 09:29 AM

Please don't tell anyone about 2+2. Why would you tell anyone at Party Poker about 2+2?! WHY?!

Because you think he seems like a nice guy? Who cares. You still will probably never see him at a table again and if you did, he will be much wiser because of you and I hope he takes some of your bankroll. If you don't see him, you might see someone else down the road who HE has now told about 2+2 and he might take some of your bankroll. GOT IT?

WHY TELL ANYONE???

WHY??????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

GEEZ.

Wombles

jwombles

01-19-2005, 09:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
the players who are actually willing to take the time to learn the game deserve to, i dont think its fair of you to withhold information from the small populus of players that fit this category. most people that you link to twoplustwo.com are just going to skim it over and say "nice site." theyll never look at it again. either that or theyll just rant with the leeches in the WPT forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not fair? How is it not fair to withhold information from your sworn enemy at the table? Are you kidding? Do you tell the same person your two hole cards because it wouldn't be fair if he had to play his hand without knowing your hand?

Are you serious?

charlie_t_jr

01-19-2005, 02:45 PM

Yes to friends, but no on internet tables.

Justin F

01-19-2005, 03:27 PM

I would not tell anybody about anything i have read or found out on my own. My edge is the fact that i work hard to become a better poker player. I search for information on my own, this is my edge. I am still a novice but i believe with this attitude i will become a successful winning player.

magiluke

01-19-2005, 08:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
First off, your avatar is creepy as hell, emonrad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I recognize and endorse your avatar emonard.

Also, I don't think I would tell anyone but very close friends about 2+2, and even then, I'm not sure if I would. Close friends that I play poker with don't need to get better =)

VoxGibson

01-21-2005, 09:41 PM

Anymore i dont bother telling anyone about anything reguarding poker,

but at the time i always fealt, i can show you the door, you have to walk through it.....

mentioning the twoplustwo forum was basically me telling them how i got to my level, it may work for them.... but they have to research it themselves....

VoxGibson

01-21-2005, 09:54 PM

I can tell that it is not the most profitable thing to disclose information about your talent as a player or anything like that...
At the time i had different feelings, but have learned better, so we have no need to start "you're a moron" comments.. etc etc

VoxGibson

01-21-2005, 10:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was anticipating this argument. Yes I do. Theres a big difference between people that are here already, and those that are blissfully unaware that there is actually more to the game than they might have first thought."

[/ QUOTE ]

someone who was unaware that there is more to this game would not be asking for serious poker advice...

VoxGibson

01-21-2005, 10:08 PM

I think anymore alot of the pokerpros are going to be making more money off of thier books than their game, speaking of the rise in poker's popularity... seeing phill hellmuth on QVC kinda gave me that theory....

CaptObvious

01-21-2005, 11:33 PM

I think the question of sharing information os definitely two fold. For instance if you were struggling with one of the leaks in your game, say, bluffing in certain situations,and one of your friends happens to better at it then you are. You lead them to the twoplustwo site, or any other informative site for that matter. In that respect, they take some information, and go over it with you and effectively fix that leak in your game, as well as improving theirs. Was it worth it?

The fact still remains, the game requires many facets, and every piece of information could potentially help us improve our +EV play. The question remains, are you willing to reciprocate that. Even if they improve, are they willing to apply the many hours of time and dedication to keep it this up?

VoxGibson

01-23-2005, 12:47 AM

Do you feel that because the results seem to lean heavily towards no they wouldnt tell anyone about twoplustwo.com or the books, that at one point you may have been willing to tell someone, but now choose not to because of popular voting? i on the other hand am still indecisive, but feel that its kind of a duty to twoplustwoers who don't want others to know, to assist them in keeping their secrets? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

sjguppy

01-25-2005, 05:32 PM

After playing for many years in friendly games I thought would try online poker. The problem was that I have always been an unlucky player. At least that is what I told myself. Before I started online I decided that I might want to do some reading and get a bit better. I searched online and found 2+2 and the books they had for sale. After doing some serious reading and playing a lot of hands I am now one of those lucky players.

My point is this. I didn't need anyone to tell me what to do to become a better player. I took it upon myself to get that information. With the internet if anyone is interested in getting better it will only take a short time to get to many sites that can help you. If you aren't willing to make any effort yourself why should I be bothered to do it for you. That said, I don't think saying anything at a table will make much difference. Since it is so easy to get to sites like this, if someone hasn't already done it than telling them about it is not going to make any difference. They don't have the time or inclination to bother getting better.

This also leaves another question regarding this same issue. The owners of this site make money from advertising. More people hitting the site and using the links makes them money. Is it fair to them not to help them. I first thought about this in regards to PokerTracker. The guys there have helped make my work at the tables easier. I always hear everyone on that site berating others for telling them about the site. Since their product has helped our game shouldn't we be telling others about it. If I bought any other product that helped me make money I would't have any issue with telling others. Sort of a doble edged sword. Helping the guys who own a product actually might cost you money in the long run.

slogger

01-25-2005, 06:56 PM

I have no problem directing my friends and a few guys from my regular home game to 2+2.

I never tell strangers abotu 2+2. Just feel like it's something people should find on the their own or by actively looking for help with their game.

faustusmedea

01-25-2005, 07:16 PM

Let me understand. There are people here that are against sharing information to poker players about a website (and resources) devoted to sharing information to poker players????

kowboy

01-26-2005, 08:06 AM

Excellent point Faust, cant we all look back and remember when we yearned for reputable advice, proven advice? How many books did we have to read before we understood the overlapping suggestions to know which was what. If I see any poker player who is enthusiastic enough to ask me about his game or refer a material, I am doing myself a disservice to hide anything. For just as I hold anything back I may never receive it again. To all knowledge mongors affraid to share their wisdom, big business,tobacco,insurance co.,lawyers, etc. You slow our society down from evolving into something better. Sorry for the rant but knowledge to help anyone succeed in any endeavor gets me pumped. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BeerMoney

01-26-2005, 09:22 AM

I used to play regularly with a guy on party who lost his life savings. Me and another guy from 2+2 were chatting about it. We decided we liked the guy, and would rather see him stop playing. I sent him some private messages and told him he needed to stop playing, or read 7 card stud for advanced players. I haven't seen him on party poker in about a month, and I'm happy about that. There are plenty of fish on party, and this guy had taken enough of a beating.

Viscant

01-26-2005, 01:15 PM

I've never really understood the dividing point. Most 2+2ers are violently anti sharing information with the fish out there, which I suppose makes good sense.
But what's the difference between that and refusing to help or giving bad advice on the forums? I mean, it seems that both would accomplish the same goal, right? Protecting your edge and not educating the competition. Yet, people give consistently good advice to anyone who wanders in. It doesn't make sense to me. Either you want to protect your edge over the outsiders or you don't. How should a search engine be the great test of your worthiness?