Live 20/40

[DiceyPlay]

This is my first time playing at this level. It was a good mix of players - about 4 pretty solid and 4 weakies and me (somewhere in between).

I raise UTG with AhKh. A weak player calls in UTG+2. The small blind, another weak player, calls. The big blind, a semi-solid who likes to call down even on scary boards calls.

The flop is 7c7dAd. It's checked to me and I bet. UTG+2 folds. SB check-raises. BB folds.

At this point I'm thinking he likely has a 7 because he's really weak. But if he does why wouldn't he wait until the turn to raise? May be he's scared of the flush board, but I raised btf. May be he thinks if I flopeed Aces full, I'll let him know right then and there.

Nope none of that makes sense. He's got a 7 - he's weak and he doesn't know how to play it for max value. I should fold, but hey I've got outs. And just maybe he has AT, AJ, or AQ. I call.

Turn is a blank - I call his bet.

River is a blank - I call his bet.

He shows 97o.

Did I play that right, wtong, close?

What a lousy session, down 22 big bets ACK!

All comments appreciated.

-DP

[DiceyPlay]

My real question here is should I have folded and saved 2.5 big bets knowing that my opponent very likely has a 7 or was it worth it to call having 2 outs and the possibility that I might have him beat?

I don't think I have to worry about people taking shots at me had I folded. The solids know what's up and know I'll call them. The weakies either don't care or are easy to read - I'll call them.

Thanks,

-DP

[James282]

Unless he's super weak, predictable, and you've seen him show down lots of hands you need to get to the river. Not much you can do.
-James

[random@cash]

You said yourself that he's super weak. If you want to know if he's holding AQ, AJ etc... reraise flop. If he plays back (representing a 7) you can call/fold, or call and then fold unimproved to turn bet. If he just calls trying to checkraise turn (unlikely in a weak/inexperienced player) you save .5bb, assuming you check turn & he bets river and you call. I know this is pretty basic stuff, just putting it out there.

[TStoneMBD]

i was thinking pretty much the same thing as randomcash. if you feel that its more likely than not that he has a 7, you can 3bet the flop and only go 1 bet on the turn or river. if he shows anymore strength after your flop 3bet you can muck.

[elysium]

hi dicey

this situation comes up often. the majority of the time, you will find out about the trips on the turn. when you discover them on the flop, with position, and heads-up, what you do will be determined by your image.

and this is a great post illustrating the importance of table image. however, since the majority of the time this situation will have you in first position rather than last, i will proceed under the assumption that you are acting first. the advice is identical for those times when acting last, with the exception of the check-raise attempt on the turn that the AK holder is likely to represent. this is usually a first position situation.

table image.

by the way dicey, it occasionally may appear to many posters that i sometimes stray away from the principal question to which the poster is desirous of having an answer given. the reason it may seem like that is because of the dynamics of the game. it can often be heard, that in many cases there is no one single right answer to a hold em problem; that each such hold em question can have various solutions, the right answer upon which depends from whom you are receiving your hold em education. hmmm....anyway, the reason that it may seem as though i drift off topic sometimes is because of the intertwined nature of this particular game.

when addressing an issue stemming from a hold em hand, you must incorporate into the answer the conglomeration of hold em history in which the indigeneous hand being addressed is enveloped. the hold em history introduced, as the solution to the hold em problem posed by the poster unfolds, may also be relevant in many other solutions of many other hold em questions, in many other ares of the game. so while one factor that has relevance in one hold em situation may also have relevance in some other hold em area and situation, and even though the two situations may be far removed one from the other, it doesn't change the fact that the history introduced as the solution unfolds is very much on cue with the problem in the hand posed by the poster.

and so it's table image. table image. what about our table image?

right away dicey, i am going to provide you with what i think is the best solution in this particular situation that you have presented. hereinbefore alluded to, the majority of the time, you will discover the trips on the turn. less often, but a fair number of times, you will strongly suspect them on the flop. before you delve into thought any more deeply than just initial relization that your flopped best 2 pair/ best kicker may be up against trips, you need to consider whether or not you have recently been involved in a frightfully aggressive raising war in which you were perceived as being extremely tenacious throughout the fight, and the raising war's primary instigator; whether or not you were the instigator is very important. also, you must cogitate just slightly further and ascertain whether or not this battle is still very fresh in your opponent's mind. does your opponent think that the battle is still very fresh? might your opponent be a little on the pacifistic side of things, and might the hypothetical raising war have made him a little queasy? while you were firing during the raising war, did your opponent perceive you as someone who might enjoy that type of thing?


if the conditions described above are the case in this hand, provided that your opponent has not also been the recent recipient of a direct reward from just such a horrifyingly frightful hand having taken place recently enough to still be fresh in his mind, then you must reraise the flop with tenacious intent.

he will call you.

you must check the turn with the tenacious intent of luring him into a frightfully unexpected check-raise.

he will check it down.

you must check the river in a manner which suggests that you are willing to let your opponent off the hook, while questioning yourself over his worthiness of your reprieve. if you let him off the hook skillfully enough on the river......

he will check it down.

the only hope of winning this hand is to spike the A. there is no other way to win it. the free showdown value of your reraise is pretty washed out on this one, but there may be a little something there. is the spiking value of your reraise really worth its weight in salt? well no dicey. i have to say that it isn't. here's why you should make that reraise, and as with everything about answering a question arising from this game, we have to take a lot of history into the consideration of the equation.

you should make the reraise because while we can't determine just how much showdown value you have there with the reraise (it runs along a sliding scale with the liklihood of the possibility of having erred in your rating of your opponent and his being, instead, the type of opponent who would check-raise with the same hand that you have, or less likely, a weaker hand than you have.), there still is, nevertheless, some showdown value to your reraise. now, we also must add to that value, the spiking value of your reraise. well, your reraise has a little of that. no, not a lot, but something. and dicey, as far as giving you an exact dollar figure on exactly how much your reraise is worth, well, no one could do that based on those 2 considerations; showdown and spiking. but if someone were to place a dollar figure on the worth of your reraise, he would have to consider 1 more factor that i don't even have a name for; the effect that folding vs. not folding will have on your total session, and particularly the effect that it will have in the immediate subsequent hands. for our purposes here, we will only examine the effect that folding will have. we will also list the benefits of not folding under the listing of....oooo....what? for the time being, let's list the things that we do at the table that gives our outlook and how we feel about our decision making process under the heading of either session value positive or session value negative. sv+ or sv- hmmm, o.k.....i can live with that.



if you fold when you are check-raised on the flop, the showdown value of your reraise had you made it, will appear to you to as having been higher than it actually was; a lot higher. after you fold to the check-raise, the belief by you that the showdown value of the reraise has risen will not go away before it festers and enters into the early stages of a nagging feeling that you threw away the best hand. now, a couple of things here;

firstly, this festering, nagging feeling that is evolving into a belief that you have thrown the best hand away, will not be mollified by either contemplating the specter of a 4 bet or the cost of seeing the river on the expensive round. add to that the fact that, because of the structure of hold em, the pot odds usually make it correct to call on the flop; calling on the flop is done so frequently that it is considered the socially acceptable and customary thing to do; so when you fold on the flop, and the hand that you folded appears to you more and more like the best hand, there is no opposite corresponding mitigating factor posing enough of a risk or expense to eliminate the festering idea that has taken hold over you, and spreading into a belief that you were wrong and made a bad decision, and may do so again. history, you shall think, repeats itself. this is very negative, especially for the immediate subsequent hands.

secondly, bad decisions that you know that you made in the past will be allured by the spreading doubt that you have now concerning your poker playing ability and skill level. the fold will become odious to you. you will not be shaken out this feeling of negativity by contemplation of any of the reasons that, at that time, you decided were valid enough for throwing away the best hand. needless to say, this represents sv-, and even sv- itself is working against you.

what will shake you out of this? a big win. but that's less likely due to the sv-. so folding to the check-raise on the flop represents enough sv- to make reraising the check-raise your only viable option. no, the reraise doesn't have enough showdown value to make the reraise worth it; and no, the reraise doesn't have enough spiking value to make the reraise worth it. the reraise may or may not have sufficient sv+ on its own to make reraising worth it. but when you factor in all 3; showdown value, spiking value, and sv (either sv+ or the avoidance of the resulting sv- of a fold), the reraise is potworthy, IMHO.

by the way, folding on the turn is always correct against this type opponent, because the size of the bet being faced is sufficiently large enough to shake out any sv- that might set in. also, it is socially acceptable and not in parting with custom to fold on the turn, so it is less likely that sv- will take hold. you begin thinking instead in terms of how things would turn out if you made that call every single time. there is little room for sv- there.

my advice to you preceeds under the assumption of your acting first rather than last as posted. the reason for this is that the majority of these spots occur in when in first rather than last position. from last position, you lose a little showdown value because you can't check the turn with check-raise intent. remember though, that isn't very important. from last position, calling instead of reraising gains a little support because failing to reraise will not likely nag at you causing sv-. from first position, it may nag a little in the event of a fold on the turn because of the check-raise intent missed opportunity.

by the way, in case the double check-raise issue arises, you have to remember that it isn't a double check-raise intent that your representing when you check into your opponent on the turn, you are threatening naked aggression with reasonable enough expectation of eliciting a typical passive primordial response. so if the action has you check-raising instead of reraising, you still would check the turn with check-raising intent.

in almost every other variation of this situation in which you have not recently shown a tendancy to instigate out of the enjoyment thereof, a frightfully aggressive raising war, call the weak/ tight and fold on the turn. the reason: sv-. the same is true for calling stations no matter what your image.

in almost every other situation as the one posted in which some other type opponent is involved instead of the weak/ tight, this hand is elementary, with you as the bettor and in the lead. in almost every other case except the specific example put forth by this poster, you will never fold. this example is an abberation from the norm, and it is a major aberration. be very sure that the image your opponent has of you is correct for this situation and that it is still very fresh in his mind. remember that primarily, you will be swinging the weight of a frightfully aggressive image onto the scales which weigh and dictate your opponent's instinctive primordial decisions, and you see that with enough weight a favorable check-down can be registered. if you are fortunate enough to have the right image and at the right time, the reraise gets the nod.

make a malicious attempt to lure him into a check-raise on the turn.

on the river, let him off the hook. remember, no cards, no nothing. primordial. let him off the hook.

image.

if image is par, he will check-down the river. you will not be given any credit by him for having achieved a free showdown, he will almost certainly blame it on his kicker.

it is impossible to win this hand unless you spike. what you are hoping to accomplish is walking away from it feeling as though you won. the gives your reraise the extra sv+ that it needs to make reraising correct.

[Steve Giufre]

Im pretty surprised people are telling you that you can get away from this that easily. First thats a pretty unusual way for him to play a 7. But what makes you think he wont play any ace this way as well? Without some sort of real specific read you kinda have to see this through. I can see maybe raising the turn and folding to a three bet, or raising the river and folding to a three bet, but just laying down when he fires the turn without making some sort of move would be horrible.

I dont really like raising the flop and then folding to a three bet. Agaist a few players its ok, but there are too many out there that will three bet stuff like AJ-AK on the flop and I dont want to throw away what might be the best hand unless I'm really sure I'm beat in your spot. If he three bets you on the turn or river sounds like you can dump it. All things considered I think you played the hand fine, but without a read I dont think you should be getting super worried about trips in that spot next time, at least not without gathering some more info first.

[TStoneMBD]

steve, the SB is a weak player and apparently passive. if hes a solid player, or tricky player, then you can call down or raise somewhere for value. passive players generally are not going to raise this flop with a medium ace as they prefer to call down. against these types of players who refrain from raising, they usually have a 7. if hero 3bets the flop here, weak players are not going to be reraising him with an ace. they are weak and there is a reason for it. against tricky players this line blows, against weak ones i think its optimal.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
steve, the SB is a weak player and apparently passive. if hes a solid player, or tricky player, then you can call down or raise somewhere for value. passive players generally are not going to raise this flop with a medium ace as they prefer to call down. against these types of players who refrain from raising, they usually have a 7. if hero 3bets the flop here, weak players are not going to be reraising him with an ace. they are weak and there is a reason for it. against tricky players this line blows, against weak ones i think its optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is real passive then I totally agree. I think the word weak can be taken a few different ways. I just wouldnt want to give a guy who is capable of overplaying his hand on the flop an oppertunity to take me off a winner. There are certainly (a few) players who will never three bet that flop without a 7. If this guy was one of them, then I think your line is best.

[roy_miami]

You can call down here 100% of the time for the rest of your life and it'll have almost no effect on your winrate. Having said that, there will be certain situations when you will be able to use your reads to make laydowns that will save you a few bets here and there over your lifetime which will be more significant for some than others. This looks like a good opportunity to release your hand based on your read of a passive, predictable opponent. The fact that he checkraised the preflop raiser with an Ace on the flop makes it look much more likely that he has a huge hand.

[Vince Lepore]

You played this hand fine. If this fellow will call a raise from a solid UTG player with 9,7 you will eventually take all of his chippies. One of the problems laying down hands like this is that other good players in the game will start to take shots at you. Sure that in and of itself is not reason enough to play on. This player will probably play a weak Ace the same way and that is the prime reason for playing on. Reraising the flop is wrong. If you are beat you cost yourself more money. If you are ahead you have him betting into you. This is not a bad situation to be in.

Vince /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[elysium]

hi vince

i am a big proponent of calling it down to prevents shots from being taken. it is a cornerstone that i have put into my game. calling it down has given me the opportunity to really research this area of the game at the table, and may be one of the primary reasons that my hand reading and opponent reading skills have had opportunity to find purchase.

if you detect that you are against a strong made hand that you do not have the odds to improve over, against an opponent whom anyone in the field who knew enough to take note of particular laydowns that may seem suspiciously weak, would also know that making the call against would be throwing money away, it is safe to make the laydown provided that you acknowledge to the field that you too know that you are up against a strong made hand.

indicating to the field that you know that you cannot win the hand with sufficient enough odds, and frequently enough to make calling correct, by saying something along the lines of, 'oh for crying out loud! look! he has the trips! awww for crying out loud.', is a very effective way of satisfying the group's craving to see you take it all the way to showdown, without your having to pay off like a slot machine.

you can make this type of laydown under these conditions, but you must also provide the field with a showdown experience that eliminates any doubt about the actual certainty of the read that all thinking players too must have, and that eliminates any doubt about the certainty that you have that your own read is also, indeed, accurate. making the laydown like that will actually prevent shots from being taken because your opponents will fear your ability to read with such deft certainty.

your opponents will also take shots at you if you seem a little too happy maybe. announcing the read and anguishing over it satisfies them on the misery index for the time.

showdown, misery, blood; without all the paying off like a slot machine. what a game, people. what a game.

[DiceyPlay]

I never replied to this one. I wanted to thank everyone for their input. Especially Elysium. Fascinating post. I really liked the sessionEV stuff. You have a very eloquent way of bringing to light concepts that are way out there (to me), but very relevant to your results.

I think the way I should have played this hand is the standard way (not the way I did though) - re-raise the flop to induce a check on the turn. And then call the river.

But the way elysium describes is probably even better. Raise in such a way and check in such a way to induce a free showdown. And don't fold right away simply because of the short term affects that would have on your image and self-image.

Great stuff! That's what makes this game so great ... almost everything is relevant. It all depends on the psychology of your opponents.