Justify this call on the turn for me

[johnnybeef]

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Omaha/8 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Ray folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

it is obvious that i am beat on the low and i will have to draw to win the high should i have folded on the turn??

[tubalkain]

AAQT can't even make a low, and it's obvious to me that BB has at the very least a good low hand, and quite possibly a straight to take it down.

I'd have folded that on the flop.

[beset7]

I would play this hand but I would have checked the flop. With this type of high-only hand I'm looking to really connect with the flop. Even with the heart draw you are now drawing to half the pot. I think raising pre-flop is fine but I would have taken a free card on the flop and then folded the turn. With only the half the pot up for grabs the pot just isn't worth it.

[Nick709]

With high hands like these it is usally better to limp in preflop unless a special situation dictates, that is just my opinion and I am sure will be debated.
On the flop heads up I would probably bet as you did but I would definitely check the turn behind to knowing I needed to hit my flush, since you bet and he raised it's a definite fold.

[MaxSquat]

I wouldnt even bet the turn. It is hard to "bluff" at the 2/4 tables so I'm trying to figure out why you did it.

I would've folded at the reraise simply because of this. You are "gambling" for another heart to show up just to get your half of the pot and to break "even". You wont be profitting here.

Picture this...supposed a 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif or 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif came up the river?

[johnnybeef]

a few notes as to why i did what i did here. preflop raise was to gain the button. The bet on the flop was because i thought that i probably had the best high that could turn into a better high. Furthermore if he didnt have A3 he could figure that i did and i could take down the pot here. Looking at this situation a day later, i like the way i played it until i called the check raise on the turn.

thanks for your help everyone,
johnny

[beset7]

I like your justification for the flop bet (representing A-3), but at a 2/4 table I think it loses it's power. I'd agree w/ the preflop raise for two reasons (1) gain the button (2) randomizing your raising patterns. However, the fact is the reason (2) as well as representing A-3 is only effective against savvy opponents. If a 2/4 game has players paying enough attention for these moves to be effective, I think I'm looking for another table.

[Matt Ruff]

[ QUOTE ]
Ultimate Bet 2/4 Omaha/8 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Ray folds, SB folds, BB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this isn't the part of the hand you're asking about, but I'd have just called pre-flop. With an all-high hand like this, I want to see the flop cheaply, and I want lots of company, so that if the flop hits me I get paid off. Raising scares off potential customers, and also announces to the table that I'm (a) holding pocket aces and (b) probably don't have much in the way of a low.


[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (4.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I like aggression, but I think it's a mistake here. You have no shot at low, and it's very possible you're behind on the high end as well. Remember that your opponent called a pre-flop raise; most of the hands I'd do that with would love this flop. I think a bluff is unlikely to work, and if it doesn't, you're stuck chasing half of a miniscule pot.


[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (3.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your opponent called your pre-flop raise, and then he called your flop bet. Even in a low-limit game where people do stupid things, the logical assumption is that he really does have a hand, and with a board showing 2345, that hand is probably a straight. He's not going to lay that down, so why bet into him? Just check, and hope for a non-pairing heart on the river.

-- M. Ruff

[Buzz]

Johnny - I agree with the other responders, especially Matt's detailed analysis.

To specifically answer your question, assuming BB has a low straight to justify the check-raise, you're getting about 2.5 to 1 (half) pot odds to draw for the heart flush after you get check-raised by BB, but the odds against making the heart flush are about 4 to 1. To justify making the call, your pot odds have to be greater than the odds against making your hand - and they are not.

Your initial third-round bet is a semi-bluff, but not a good one, in my humble opinion, because of the danger of facing a small straight. Your own initial third-round bet is not likely to blow anyone away who called your flop bet, and you don't have odds to initiate a bet here. The semi-bluff might work sometimes, but considering that BB already called a bet after this flop, I don't think the semi-bluff will blow your opponent away often enough to work out well for you. Alas, if you don't make that initial bet, your odds to call will be even worse.

Bottom line: You've got one hand stuck in the tar when you miss on the turn. Best you can do is take the free card and not get the other hand stuck too.

You don't want to fold to check raises, but you don't want to call this check raise either.

Your best solution for the future is to avoid putting yourself in the position of folding to check raises.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[gergery]

I'd have flat called preflop. Buying the button is helpful for hands like A3xx where you want to see what your opponents do first-- but here its pretty simple: if you get 2-3 high cards you'll bet, if not you'll fold. I'd play this hand like 44 in holdem -- you want to see a cheap flop with a bunch of other people so they pay you off when you hit your hand (high flop), which happens infrequently.

I'd have checked behind on the flop most of the time, occasionally bet out to represent a A3. The problem is that almost any hand he can call with preflop can call here, so it won't work very often.

I'd have checked the turn for sure. After his flop call he is not folding and you have nothing.
I'd have folded to his checkraise. You must risk 1 bet to win half of a 6.25BBpot, so you're getting 3:1 odds but will only hit once in 4.8 times.

I'd recommend you play more straightforwardly at lower levels. You don't really want to be bluffing, representing hands, or mixing up your play very much

--Greg

[chaos]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising scares off potential customers, and also announces to the table that I'm (a) holding pocket aces and (b) probably don't have much in the way of a low.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that I would not raise. However I don't think that a raise announces that you probably do not have much in the way of a low. A good A2 is probably the most common raising hand.

[Yads]

I can't, fold to the raise.

[Matt Ruff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising scares off potential customers, and also announces to the table that I'm (a) holding pocket aces and (b) probably don't have much in the way of a low.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that I would not raise. However I don't think that a raise announces that you probably do not have much in the way of a low. A good A2 is probably the most common raising hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not from early position. A good low holding generally wants company in the hand -- raising from EP drives out people who'll help pay you off if your low makes, but usually won't scare off the other A2s who'll split the low end with you. Raising with A3 from early position is even worse -- now you're chasing out everyone but the lows that'll beat you.

There are players who'll raise early with A2, but they tend to be the maniacs who *always* raise with A2. With non-maniacs, the most common early raising hand is aces or kings, possibly suited, looking to cut down the competition for high. If I'd been johnnybeef's opponent in this hand, I'd have put him on what he actually had -- aces with a heart flush draw. (AA3 unsuited would also be a possibility, but not enough of one for me to assume he'd made the wheel).

-- M. Ruff

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't, fold to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
thanks, this is what i wanted to hear. I guess the question i had when i posted this hand is when is it correct to stick around in a pot when you know that the best you can do is only win 1/2?

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the question i had when i posted this hand is when is it correct to stick around in a pot when you know that the best you can do is only win 1/2?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you obviously need much higher pot odds than you're getting. If you have a draw to a high, just chop the pot in half and figure out the pot odds.
So you're drawing for your flush. (BTW I think you should have checked behind, but anyway.) After your bet and his raise you're getting about 6:1 for half the pot or effectively 3:1. Since there's absolutely no implied odds (assuming he made his low,) this is a losing proposition.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
After your bet and his raise you're getting about 6:1 for half the pot or effectively 3:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg and Yads - You're both coming up with 3 to 1 odds but I get closer to 2.5 to 1.

[ QUOTE ]
You must risk 1 bet to win half of a 6.25BBpot, so you're getting 3:1 odds

[/ QUOTE ]

O.K. I think I see what you're not doing.

You're not figuring that if Hero splits the pot, he'll only get half of his last bet back.

Try it this way:

Use one chip for a small bet and two chips for a big bet.

I'm stacking up chips and making two piles (plus the half chip from the small blind in a third pile).

After the first betting round the piles are 2,2,.5

After the second betting round the piles are 3,3,.5

After Hero bets on the third betting round, but before BB check raises, the piles are 3,5,.5

Then after BB check raises on the third betting round, but before Hero calls, the piles are 7,5,.5

If Hero calls the check-raise, he's putting two chips on his own pile, which already has 5 chips in it. If he makes his flush, he'll get back his own pile. If you don't figure the small blind, if Hero makes his flush, Hero will get 5 chips for his 2 chip investment.

That's 5 to 2 (or 2.5 to 1).

There are only two people involved in this pot (plus a half small bet from the small blind, but I figured maybe the small blind covered the rake so that it was a wash).

I don't know exactly how to figure the small blind here, and I don't know what the rake is. If we award half the small blind to Hero and half the small blind to BB, then Hero is getting 5.25 to 2 (2.625 to 1) to call. If we award the entire small blind to Hero, then Hero is getring 5.5 to 2 (2.75 to 1).

Not a big deal but I have a few questions:
(1) How much is the rake?
(2) How is the rake taken?
(3) Are half pots split evenly, or are they somehow rounded off, perhaps so as to award the entire small blind to the winner for high?

[ QUOTE ]
but will only hit once in 4.8 times.

[/ QUOTE ]

After the turn, there are 9 missing hearts (but two of them pair the board) and 35 missing cards from the other three suits. If that is correct, then the odds against making the flush on the river are 35 to 9, or about 4 to 1.

If I count the hearts that pair the board as losing cards for Hero, then I get 37 to 7 or 5.3 to 1.

I'm guessing BB has the small straight rather than a set. (Considering the betting, a small straight is most likely for BB here, I think). If so, Hero will win even if the board pairs. That's how I'm figuring the hand odds. 35 to 9 or about 4 to 1.

Of course BB could have the monster under the bed, a set plus the small straight, (or just a set), in which case the odds against Hero would be 37 to 7 or 5.3 to 1. (This is the worst case scenario).

Or, BB could simply have two pair (or the small straight plus two pair), in which case the odds against Hero would depend on which two pair BB held. 35 to 9, 36 to 8, or 37 to 7.

Of course BB could be bluffing or have something else, but I'd play BB for the small straight and estimate the hand odds are 35 to 9 against. (~4 to 1)

At any rate, I don't see how you came up with 4.8 to 1.

Edit: O.K. I think I may see it.
44/9 = 4.888/1. Is that it? If so, although I might have rounded differently, we're on the same base. But I think you do better (because it's clearer) to compare odds vs. odds rather than odds vs. probability.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[gergery]

If you’d have told me Buzz would find not one but two errors I’d made, I’d never have believed it. Tricky stuff, these odds. I always learn something from your posts Buzz.

Thanks.

--Greg