JJ - 6max - Move of honor ?

[sourbeaver]

Would you pull the move of honor preflop with JJ at 6-max?
In what situations ?

[fuego527]

ive tried this move heads up with jj and qq
both times i was quick called with weak hands
altho obviously 2 isnt the sample size you were looking for lol

[greg nice]

absolutely not. this is a play losing players make.

this question is ludicrous.

..thats is, if the "move of honor" is the preflop open push. who knows what the 'move of honor' is

[KaiShin]

Nope.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you pull the move of honor preflop with JJ at 6-max?
In what situations ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I fold JJ preflop if someone makes the other "move of honor" (open push?) before me.

-DB

[amoeba]

don't move of honor with JJ.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Sometimes I pull the move of honor with big lick because it's my favorite hand. Would anyone else agree that is a good move?

[boondockst]

depends on the stacks....and the table...

i'd rather push with AK than JJ....i'd rather catch cards than dodge cards...

[snowbank]

i'd rather push with AK than JJ....i'd rather catch cards than dodge cards...

please sit at my table

[boondockst]

didn't say i felt it statistically valuable....i more meant that if i'm calling someone, i'm more confident with AK (slightly less chance they don't have AA or KK) than with JJ (when they might have QQ KK or AA)

horrid logic...didn't know anyone took it seriously..you play UB?

[TheWorstPlayer]

I said big lick. It was a joke. I was assuming OP's post was, too.

[Sephus]

while his rationale doesnt really make sense, i also would rather push preflop with AK than JJ in most situations.

[boondockst]

are you (previous poster) saying you'd rather push with 22 than AK? if not, where do you draw the line? TT?

[TheWorstPlayer]

Since 22 is a better hand all-in than AK, I would rather push with 22. Unless somehow I think it is going to be multi-way.

[Kips Bay Kid]

AK is already overrated, to be pushing PF with it is a joke.

[TheWorstPlayer]

It's not a joke, but I think it is not a good idea. I think it is a decent tourney idea and it gets carried over to cash games, but I don't play tourneys so I'm not sure. At times it may be +EV to call an all-in with AK, but it is almost definitely more +EV to see a flop than it is to push preflop if you have the choice.

[boondockst]

you have to clarify if it's shallow stacks with fishies flopping all over with KTs all-ins yes i'll call a smaller all in with AK....and see AQ or AJs quite often....and have outs when he shows JJ or 22......try it in a $20/$40 at a casino? No.

[greg nice]

this thread is ridiculous.

[sourbeaver]

Yeah, I did it from the button two times against LAGs in the blind and was called by very marginal hands also.
I'm mostly talking Party 25 and 50 6-max here.

It seems not many people took the question seriously. It's probably not very +EV since JJ often will be in coin flip situations against any two overcards (ouch with QQ KK AA, but rarely, being 6-handed). But profit comes from AJ, KJ, QJ, TT, 99, 88 so it's somewhat +EV, and it becomes doable with decent fold equity I guess ?


EDIT : the times I tried it and was called by marginal hands was basically me and 1-3 LAG(s) left sitting at a 6-max table (so 2-4 handed).

[amoeba]

it should make sense, while AK is a small dog against more hands, it is also only dominated by KK, AA while JJ is dominated by the additional QQ.

[greg nice]

[ QUOTE ]

It seems not many people took the question seriously.


[/ QUOTE ]

if you arent serious then dont post to begin with. this forum is already cluttered.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm mostly talking Party 25 and 50 6-max here.


[/ QUOTE ]

just because you are playing at low levels with a bunch of morons shouldnt give you the excuse to play poorly. this is why a lot of people say that the party NL games are mostly bad for beginners because it encourages poor play. unless you plan on staying at party 50nl for the rest of your days, of course.

you can claim that you werent serious all you want, but this thread proves that many people arent sure if this is the right play or not. and some who suspect this might not be a good play, have no clue why.

[ QUOTE ]

But profit comes from AJ, KJ, QJ, TT, 99, 88 so it's somewhat +EV, and it becomes doable with decent fold equity I guess ?

[/ QUOTE ]

against anyone but complete monkeys, you LOSE VALUE from those hands. you get no profit from them. go figure

[greg nice]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It seems not many people took the question seriously.


[/ QUOTE ]

if you arent serious then dont post to begin with. this forum is already cluttered.



[/ QUOTE ]

apologies.. i misread this. the important part of my post still stands.

[sourbeaver]

[ QUOTE ]

if you arent serious then dont post to begin with. this forum is already cluttered.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you found out you could read English and corrected yourself.

[ QUOTE ]

just because you are playing at low levels with a bunch of morons shouldnt give you the excuse to play poorly.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is about adjusting to the game and the players in it. You mean to tell me you don't adjust your game the slightest bit when you're up against 5 LAGs with VPIPs over 50 ? ha,ha,ha.. ha

[ QUOTE ]

you can claim that you werent serious all you want, but this thread proves that many people arent sure if this is the right play or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh hello there, I am serious, I'm sure you're aware of that by now. If many people aren't sure if this play is correct at that particular level, then maybe that's why there is a discussion going on. Reality check : you are not the Almighty Poker Player.

[ QUOTE ]

against anyone but complete monkeys, you LOSE VALUE from those hands. you get no profit from them. go figure

[/ QUOTE ]

Many fish will call at the 6-max with lesser hands.
That's the basis of discussion; do these lesser hands offer enough value to overcome the coin flips and dog situations. Keep in mind we're talking 6-max, where many players do have VPIPs over 50 and play complete trash in any position.

[greg nice]

against loosies with 50 vpip, why would you push all in preflop? it makes no sense.

do you understand how to make money at this game?

if people are loose, then they will surely call to see the flop. with 50 vpip, they will surely call with some pretty garbage hands that you are a huge favorite over. THATS WHAT YOU WANT.

when you push all in preflop, you will only get action as either a small favorite or a huge dog. THATS NOT WHAT YOU WANT. you let your opponents play optimally against you. this is basic fundamental theorem of poker stuff.

but what do i know.. you say QJ will call you.

[Sephus]

yeah, what a joke. who ever made money pushing preflop with AK? these are both from last night.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($27.45)
SB ($77.95)
Hero ($108)
UTG ($171.2)
MP ($48.35)
CO ($381.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $14.5</font>, Hero calls $107 (All-In), SB calls $62.95 (All-In).

Flop: ($185.95) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: ($185.95) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($185.95) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $185.95

Results:
SB has 3h Jh (one pair, threes).
Hero has Kh Ah (high card, ace).
Outcome: SB wins $154.90. Hero wins $29.55.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($100)
UTG ($62.95)
Hero ($157.3)
CO ($118.5)
Button ($55.85)
SB ($432.1)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls $1, Hero calls $1, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) completes, BB calls $99 (All-In), UTG folds, Hero calls $156.30 (All-In), SB folds.

Flop: ($259.30) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: ($259.30) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($259.30) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $259.30

Results:
BB has Js Qc (one pair, sixes).
Hero has Ad Ks (two pair, kings and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $257.80.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
At times it may be +EV to call an all-in with AK, but it is almost definitely more +EV to see a flop than it is to push preflop if you have the choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

not if you are playing against players who will go allin preflop (after raising or reraising) for huge amounts with something like AJ or KQ. you have to get the money in while you can, or else you will have to both hit the board to get his stack.

as for trying to get allin with AK as a default play, i think we can agree it's silly. hell, i dont even raise AK preflop a lot of the time.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
Since 22 is a better hand all-in than AK, I would rather push with 22. Unless somehow I think it is going to be multi-way.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, for anyone who might actually take this seriously, this has to be a joke. i know, i don't really get it either.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since 22 is a better hand all-in than AK, I would rather push with 22. Unless somehow I think it is going to be multi-way.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, for anyone who might actually take this seriously, this has to be a joke. i know, i don't really get it either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
2s 2c 903239 52.75 799119 46.67 9946 0.58 0.530
Kd Ah 799119 46.67 903239 52.75 9946 0.58 0.470

So you are saying you would rather have AK because you like being the underdog?

[tbach24]

TheWorstPlayer, you've got to be kidding. AK is a better hand than 22. Not because AK beats 22, but because of the range of hands that will call your all in. Say that range in 6max is 99-AA, AJ-AK, and KQ. I'll run 22 vs. all of those hands and then AKo.

22 vs. those hands is behind 39.409-to-60.591
Ako vs. those hands is ahead 56.554-to-43.446

Therefore, AKo is a better hand than 22.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Really? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tbach24]

Yes /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[TheWorstPlayer]

Sorry my humour is bad and someone might have taken me seriously. I was serious in my previous post, though, where I said that although pushing with AK might be +EV it is almost certainly more +EV to play it more normally.

[Sephus]

i still don't get the joke TWP. when you post that stuff without including a /images/graemlins/wink.gif or something, some people don't know you aren't serious and it just clutters the thread. if you're taking a clever jab at someone and i just missed it, whatever.

[TheWorstPlayer]

This whole thread just seems so ridiculous. The whole move of honor is ridiculous in my opinion. It is not a real play. It is saying "These people are so stupid that I can take advantage of them in a particularly stupid way." Then you end up having whole discussion about when is the optimal time to make this stupid play and people start thinking that it is a real play because people are having a real discussion about it. The whole thing just makes me a little annoyed. Sorry if I annoyed you back.

[tbach24]

lol. okay i just wanted to make sure. i wasnt sure that you were joking on the one where i originally responded, but thought so when you responded to me. i just want to clarify one thing, when someone includes a smiley face, they are being sarcastic (yes i still haven't figured this out lol).

[Sephus]

i think you underestimate the times when pushing is more +EV compared to seeing a flop, assuming we're only talking about soft games with shorter stacks at lower stakes.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Pushing against a raise or a re-raise is one thing. Open pushing is retarded.

[jtr]

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing against a raise or a re-raise is one thing. Open pushing is retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not meaning to fan the flames or anything, but how often would you need to see your open-push get called before you'd consider it a little better than "retarded"?

Seems to me it's game-specific, as you imply yourself. Yes, when opponents are stupid enough to call an open-push with hands like AJs or 77, and they do this with some regularity, then there's a strong case for open-pushing with AA and KK being the right move. I really take issue with your "not a real play" comment. The right play for the job depends on the game conditions. If I can get better EV out of a ham-fisted open push than I can by trying to figure out when a crowd of callers has out-flopped me, then so be it. I am not too proud to give up the chance at outplaying the opponents postflop -- not when the EV on the preflop push is so high.

[TheWorstPlayer]

OK. It is a 'real' play in the sense that it may be +EV, it may even be maximally +EV for a given circumstance. In that case, it would not only be a real play, it would be the best play I acknowledge that. However, those circumstances are so strange and stupid (even if they exist, and I am not saying that they don't exist on the SSNL tables) that although making a move like the move of honor may be the best move there, learning to play with moves like the move of honor is not the best thing, I don't think.

Let's say you just sit down at the table and wait for AA, KK, and then pull the move of honor. Let's say doing this you can make 10BB/100. Let's say the alternative is to play more normally and you would make 8BB/100. Personally, I think the latter is better, because it is more +EV for your ENTIRE CAREER since it will teach you how to play better and then you can move up stakes or play in live games, etc. If you pull the move of honor very often with AA/KK then when people hit sets, you can just say "Damn, how did I lose, we were all-in preflop. This sucks." But then you move up stakes, or play live, or whatever where people don't call the move of honor and now you have to make a normal raise with AA/KK and play post flop. How will you know how to identify a set? You won't. You will be learning what you should have been learning at lower stakes, but now you will be learning it at higher stakes with more on the line. If a good player can identify a table where the move of honor is the best move for the circumstances, fine. But it annoys me to see it discussed on a strategy board where normally real strategy is discussed and now it is being discussed as being the best move with AK and JJ. The best thing for most people in most circumstances is to learn how to play.

[boondockst]

although we seem to be opposite in thinking, WorstPlayer.......i will admit that if I EVER was going to open-push with AK or JJ or reraise a significant amount of my stack all-in, it's going to be when i'm more on "tilt"-ish or generally pissed off (read: Shouldn't be at the table) than when i'm trying to play my "A" game...So i don't fit your class of "doesn't know how to play correctly" but Yes, i will make that play sometimes against smaller stacks and guys i've seen get broken off to just a few chips left....and yes, i will see K10s and AJs and AQo most of the time with my AK raise-reraise-push play.

[Sephus]

hmm at the point when people started just saying "i would never push/rather push with XX" i thought we were just talking about pushing, not open pushing.

if i made you think i was defending open pushing with AK sorry, i'd agree that's very, very rarely the best play.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Yes, as you and boon just said, pushing after a raise or a re-raise is not a bad play in many circumstances. It was just the open push (MoH) that I think is retarded.

[sourbeaver]

Hey, here's the thing. I respect you as a poster, really.
I also respect your right to express your thoughts about the move of honor and my specific question about it. But why the hell are you posting 10 times in a thread that you feel is essentially "ridiculous". Just let others discuss the matter if they want to, at no time did anyone ask for negativity, which by the way you're not the only one to clutter the thread with.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Well, I'm glad that you respect me as a poster, and I respect you as well. I know that you are a good player, too. I have posted a lot in this thread, not intending to display "negativity", but because I feel like threads like these will lead some people to become worse players instead of better ones and that is the opposite intention of this forum. But, as I said in yet another thread on this topic, I will now stop fighting this fight. Sorry if I "cluttered" your thread.

[jtr]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I think the latter is better, because it is more +EV for your ENTIRE CAREER since it will teach you how to play better...

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice reply, TWP. I appreciate the thought-out response and can only agree.

Cheers,
--JTR.

[meow_meow]

[ QUOTE ]
Since 22 is a better hand all-in than AK, I would rather push with 22. Unless somehow I think it is going to be multi-way.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just terrible thinking. Just because 22 is a small favorite over AK prefrop HU, does not make pushing with 22 better than pushing with AK.

All you need to do is look at the range of hands that might call you:

AA-KK: AK dominated, 22 dominated
QQ-33: AK coinflip, 22 dominated
AQ, AJ, KQ: AK dominating, 22 coinflip
Ax, Kx, Qx: AK ahead, 22 coinflip

So, with the exception of AA, AK holds up better against almost any opponent holding than does 22...

[Wayfare]

The move of honor is not a substitute for skill. Me bringing it up in my article was to suggest that it might be the correct play in some circumstances, and I am convinced by dozens of examples that that is true.

I don't understand why you would infer that simply because you use a relatively simple play at very specific instances it would prevent you from learning how to play poker.

As you might have inferred from my thousand plus posts, I often post on things other than the move of honor, and I play at a decently high level.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Maybe you missed the part where I said I was joking.

[TheWorstPlayer]

And maybe you missed the part where I said
[ QUOTE ]
If a good player can identify a table where the move of honor is the best move for the circumstances, fine. But it annoys me to see it discussed on a strategy board where normally real strategy is discussed and now it is being discussed as being the best move with AK and JJ. The best thing for most people in most circumstances is to learn how to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read the first post in this thread as not saying "at a very loose table, in order to shape your table image, blah blah blah", but rather as saying "do you think if we all pull the move of honor with JJ every time on 6 max that will be better and easier than learning how to play JJ postflop?" and that is doing some people a disservice. But, as I have said twice now, I will stop fighting this fight. Sorry. And I hope you didn't read that I had any problem with you, since I don't. You certainly contribute a ton to the board and I know you are a very good player. I just have a problem with people discussing the move of honor as if it were a strategy which would work well in a legitimate poker game (read: live, higher stakes, etc.)

[Wayfare]

Treat it like a fad /images/graemlins/smile.gif