9-handed online 20/40: stab, free card, poke

[astroglide]

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

preflop is pretty normal. 3better seems a little hyper preflop, but possibly standard afterward.

Flop: (10.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls.

it's a decent pot and i think it's worth giving a twirl since it's heads up.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

well, he called but now i've got a diamond draw. i can't lay down to a raise here but i absolutely hate calling one.

River: (7.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds.

[i]i would "probably" fold to a raise here.

[skp]

You're killing your own thread with the italics.

I like the preflop coldcall but again,3 betting ain't all that far behind as a viable choice. The flop checkraise isn't standard but again, nothing wrong with the occasional twirl as you put it.

I quite like the turn check as if the dude has no pair, he likely has big cards. If he has big cards and has a diamond, he wont fold to a bet and may in fcat bet it himself. If he has big cards with no diamond, he only has 4 outs and also has two "douts" that will get him in more trouble. But as you say, by checeking, you avoid getting raised which is a distinct possibility given the preflop and flop plays.

If he has a pair like TT+ I don't think he is folding to a turn or river bet.

So, I like the turn check.

River is a very good play and I also like the intention to probably fold if raised.

[astroglide]

i don't mean to squelch conversation with the descriptions, it's just that i didn't want to throw yet another wordless "no reads, here's an online hand history" post onto a board that has WAY more than its fair share of them. the flop checkraise just fell into my lap once utg dropped. curious how strongly people feel about the turn.

[Fianchetto]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is pretty normal. 3better seems a little hyper preflop, but possibly standard afterward.


[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting hand. I'd probably 3-bet preflop, and I'm wondering why you prefered to coldcall, or is it one of those close decisions that is best to vary your play on?

[Paluka]

I don't really like this play. There is almost no hand your opponent could 3 bet preflop with other than a pocket pair lower than yours that he will fold on the flop for one bet. So you are basically always going to be facing a turn with you having to act first against him every time. I don't think he is going to fold QQ or JJ either, because it is real hard for you to have a K in your hand if he assumes you are a decent player.

[astroglide]

he likes his hand and i like mine. i'm happy to threebet with suited aces and whatever other kinds of crap in later position, but with an early raiser and me still up front i'm more comfortable seeing what happens on the flop.

[skp]

Good things to come out of a flop chcekraise if used judiciously:

1. Get a free card when out of position;

2. Freeze up your opponent eg. he may even check JJ on the turn once the dimaond hits figuring that Astro may be trying for a checkraise on the turn

3. Make it easier to read the button's hand on the river.

4. Once in a blue moon, you get a guy folding his TT or AQ right there on the flop

etc etc

[astroglide]

the plan was to follow through on the turn or try an out of position free card if it seemed appropriate (presumably a call would mean AQ, AJ, etc and a turn raise is super easy to fold to without a draw). i actually like being first to act in this case because of the strength it denotes, but a diamond popped up. i'm also not sure he assumed i was a decent player as i never play on paradise and i had just sat down.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
he likes his hand and i like mine. i'm happy to threebet with suited aces and whatever other kinds of crap in later position, but with an early raiser and me still up front i'm more comfortable seeing what happens on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
The biggest problem with not 3-betting is that you're allowing others behind you to come in for two bets, which in a loose online game will frequently happen. I'd much rather isolate preflop.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Good things to come out of a flop chcekraise if used judiciously:

1. Get a free card when out of position;

2. Freeze up your opponent eg. he may even check JJ on the turn once the dimaond hits figuring that Astro may be trying for a checkraise on the turn

3. Make it easier to read the button's hand on the river.

4. Once in a blue moon, you get a guy folding his TT or AQ right there on the flop

etc etc

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with any of this. The free card is nearly worthless to you as it only helps when you make running diamonds or hit your 9. So freezing up your opponent doesn't matter much either. So he checks his JJ on the turn, you still lose. I'm not even sure it helps you read his hand at all. Most players would just call your flop checkraise with JJ, AQ, or AK.

[Nightwish]

Assuming the river is a value bet, which worse hands do you think the button will call with? He 3-bet preflop, didn't fold to your flop check-raise, checked behind on the turn, and now the fourth diamond came. You think he has 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif6x? I'm pretty sure he doesn't have any pocket pairs higher than that, doesn't have a T, and doesn't have a K.

[astroglide]

if i wanted to play heads up with my hand against his, i would have threebet. i didn't, so i don't mind people coming along. there are still plenty of flops that i can like.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
if i wanted to play heads up with my hand against his, i would have threebet. i didn't, so i don't mind people coming along. there are still plenty of flops that i can like.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate on this? Specifically, why would you like 3 or 4 people in this hand instead of taking the flop heads up when you have position?

[astroglide]

it's mostly about fold equity (either rarely right there, or a bad fold of a 10-outer on the turn) and image. the fact that the pot had gotten that big and i was heads up on the flop 'for free' was what drove the whole thing. i had just sat down, i was only playing 2 tables on lunch, and i was making a serious point of 'playing attention' to the psych/table aspects. regardless of the outcome, i'm sure people watching wouldn't really know what to think of double-checking situations against me. and i think people on paradise, even the bad ones, will tend to be much more attentive than some other sites. it felt a lot more like a casino game.

[astroglide]

his hand might be better than mine and i don't mind playing confusing boards. i would rather cold-call than threebet with 44 here too, and it's really no different that 99 because i'm not expecting him to hold an 8 or lower any reasonable amount of the time. people also tend to fold ace-broadway more often when they're cold-called and raised than when they can check/call with a guaranteed heads up 1-bet tempo (extreme example: blind vs blind play in a raise/threebet preflop scenario). the presence of others makes ace-x overcard play much more unclear.

[astroglide]

i think a call with an ace (and obviously pairs) is very plausible given how strangely the hand has played out. the odds of inducing a bluff from a naked ace on the river here are next to zero after the flop checkraise so i'm going with what i think has a better chance of collecting a bet. if i bet, he may call with worse. if i check, i have to call a bet but he's probably beating me. money's no different than betting and folding to a raise, which is a reasonably clear defeat.

[theBruiser500]

The river bet seems suspect to me, my thinking being exactly the same as nightwishes, it's hard for me to see how he got there with a worse hand and will call you. On the river I can't think of how you can gain much by betting or by checking. However, by betting you could get raised which would be really bad I think, and by checking if he does have something weak which it seems like he does maybe you'll induce a bluff. Inducing a bluff doesn't seem likely but neither does value betting...

[theBruiser500]

I don't see how an ace can call you on the river after you checkraise the flop and then check the turn. You check/raise the flop and he will call you very often. So if you have nothing you c/r the flop with the plan of betting the turn, by not betting the turn I think it becomes clear you have some sort of hand, if not a made hand a diamond that got there on the river.

[skp]

I shouldn't have listed the 4 reasons as distinct reasons as many often work together.

[ QUOTE ]
The free card is nearly worthless to you as it only helps when you make running diamonds or hit your 9. So freezing up your opponent doesn't matter much either. So he checks his JJ on the turn, you still lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well no...at the very least, if he checks his JJ on the turn, I gain a small bet when I don't improve.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not even sure it helps you read his hand at all. Most players would just call your flop checkraise with JJ, AQ, or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if I didn't checkraise, I would no doubt have a tougher time figuring out where he is at on the river than if I did checkraise.

But I agree with you (and I am sure Astro does as well) that this is not a standard play. Its utility is perhaps marginal and becomes even more marginal if used too often.

[astroglide]

I don't see how an ace can call you on the river

i guess the only way you'll see it is to see it. my opponents are generally clicking, not considering.

[TStoneMBD]

i only read some of the replies here, but i like the induce bluff river line.

[DeeJ]

I agree with the point that if the opponent is at all smart he can guess Hero doesn't have a King. But maybe some would cold call with KQs here against a tightish player?

Anyhows, can freeze up your opponent which buys you sight of 2 cards for nothing. That's worth it, even if you are drawing thin to improve. Or maybe especially if you find yourself needing to do this /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It also tells you he almost certainly doesn't have a King.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Astro,

I don't like your flop raise. You'll find yourself in crappy spots on the turn and river far too often, spots where you'll most likely be giving up expectation. The Button will very, very rarely be folding the flop, and you know this. He'll also very, very rarely be folding the turn with any two pair hand. The prospects on a flop raise just suck here. Let it go.

GoT

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
The prospects on a flop raise just suck here. Let it go.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

No way can you fold the flop.

That said, I really dislike the preflop coldcall. Unless the game is routinely 4-5 ways for 2 bets, I am getting it headsup or getting out of dodge. It's online, one has pokertracker, the correct choice should be fairly transparent. I'd fold 44 without hesitation regardless.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is pretty normal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless UTG is a total rock (PFR&lt;3), it's a 3-bet preflop. If he's a rock, then I'm folding. The worst possible scenerio is to play it 3-way or 4-way for 2 bets out of position.