Cleaning up outs and when to fold

[hate]

I'm trying to clean up my calling station tendencies, which are still a big problem with me.

No reads.

Pokerroom .5/1

Hero is sitting MP1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

Preflop
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, <font color="red">Hero calls</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks

FlopQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

TurnQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero ?

[Piiop]

What happened to UTG and UTG+2 on the flop?

What happened on the turn - if the action is to you it's an easy bet.

[Aaron W.]

There's no out cleaning going on... Readthis post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=1284998&amp;f part=&amp;PHPSESSID=) and go through the K9 example. It's quite similar to this.

I would check-call or check-fold this flop without having a backdoor draw to go with my second pair and overcard kicker. The check-call would be if most players called the bet and check-fold otherwise. The pot is medium-sized, so the flop bet isn't bad with 7 preflop limpers, but I wouldn't make a big fuss over it.

The action looks funny, as MP3 and CO fold twice, making it look like there were more players to act behind you than there should be.

[jkl]

Assuming your heads up on the turn. I bet out and try to take it down right there.

[hate]

Sorry, I had to manually enter in everything. My Flop bet got me HU. I thought it was a clearcut bet/fold. Sorry about the thread title, I wasn't thinking properly. I'd just recently read the thread Ed Miller created about folding too much, and tempered with my own somewhat weaker play regarding draws, I'm still having problems.

[hate]

So on the flop with a middle pair, no aggression pf, and the top kicker with probably 4 outs, this is a definite no-bet flop? I've been reading most of the threads recently about the same subject, and I definitely agree it's my big weakness.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
So on the flop with a middle pair, no aggression pf, and the top kicker with probably 4 outs, this is a definite no-bet flop? I've been reading most of the threads recently about the same subject, and I definitely agree it's my big weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]

5 outs, and this isn't a definite no bet flop. However, in MP1, I don't know what % of the time you have the best hand here; I'd say it's definitely often enough to make this a value bet, but because of the flop texture, being called puts you in an awkward spot.

I'll often check to see what kind of action develops, but I don't think betting is bad here at all. The only reason the flop bet is somewhat sketchy (and I still think it's fine) is that the pot is 7-handed, putting you into a semi-awkward position on the turn, sometimes.

The only difficulty with betting this kind of flop is the semi-coordinated nature of it means players are likely to call or sometimes raise various hands here that you are ahead of, so I'd prefer to get a look on the action. With 7SB in the pot, though, I'm not check/folding this flop, and I don't think betting it is bad at all.

One thing, though: betting here isn't "cleaning up outs." It's value betting.

The Q on the turn is a great card for you, and I'd definitely bet the turn.

Rob

[hate]

Thanks, Entity. I was just completely unsure about how proper my play was, and situations exactly like this crop up frequently with me.

[JoshuaD]

This is a hand I like to check and see with. I'm looking to check-raise and get it down to h2h, or have it checked through, have a blank fall, and then bet.

Like entity said, I don't like betting and getting a bunch of callers, because it puts you in a uncomfortable position.

That said, definitely bet the turn, the Q just made your hand much better. I probably fold to a raise if it comes, but I think your hand is good now.

edit: http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi is your friend. /images/graemlins/smile.gif