Newbie question about an overpair on the flop, multi-way pot

[Grisgra]

Party $20 NLHE SNG. Blinds were 10/15 I think.

I have TT UTG+2, 800 in chips. Limper, fold, I limp (okay?), two other limpers, guy who has been a little aggressive so far raises to 70, one guy calls, blinds fold, I call (okay?), one other caller.

4 to the flop, pot is ~300.

Flop is 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Checked to me.

First question: What do I do here? (I'll follow up in a day with what I did/next question).

[therock]

Since you indicate the pre-flop raiser is a little agressive, I would make a guess that you have the best hand. I would check, hope for a resonable bet($200) from the pre-flop raiser, then push/raise. Hope the pre-flop raise has a lower pair (8,8) or two over cards.

The other player does not worry me, with the possible exception of JJ.

[Grisgra]

I ended up betting out for about 200, but I can see yer point - let's see what others say....

[Marcotte]

I think leading into the raiser is the correct move. If you go for the check-raise, it's a little harder to know where you stand. Plus, you don't want the pf raiser to check a hand like AK/Q and let a free card come off. Your tens are likely the best hand right now, but it is vulnerable to up to 16 overcards (probalby more like 12-13). There is no flush draw, and any straight draw is more likely to be a gut shot rather than open ended. I'd probably bet about 200, but 150 might be better. I forget what the stack sizes were, but a smaller bet will give you more room to manuever (sp?) and find out where you stand.

[Grisgra]

I lead out for, I think, 175. Something 1/2 to 2/3rds pot-sized. One limper folds, the next limper reraises all-in. (A correction: the board had a two-flush, it wasn't rainbow.) Original raiser folds, so it's HU if I call.

Call or fold?

[lorinda]

I like the check/push here because:

1) You have a read that he's likely to bet.
2) The guy who just checked into you might have a read that the raiser is likely to bet, and you want to see whether he has Jacks before making your play.

Lori

[lorinda]

You can rule out (in the real world at least) a drawing hand here.
However on such a polite looking board, you can also lower the odds of a set too, as they might slow play a set here.

I absolutely hate calling these usually, but 88, 99 and A7 all seem far more likely than JJ, QQ, KK given the preflop action (or lack of) and the only non-set hand I'm even slightly scared of against the Party silly-folk is AA.
QQ and KK will have either raised or reraised preflop, although some people will play JJ like you played your TT.

I think I shut my eyes, hit call and get ready to start a new game on this one occasion, although I can often comfortably fold tens if things are even slightly different here.

Lori

[DougL]

I agree with the CR-push line. You are where you are now because someone else pushed and put you to the test. I assume that the raiser has you covered. You are in a strange place because the raiser has no idea what you have. What hands can anyone put you on?

You have to give some thought to how you play short stacked vs. this field. I think that the better you play with your now ~540 stack, the less you have to call. If this group is punishing the short stacks or if you are not a better than average player in this situation, the call becomes a no-brainer for the reasons lorinda mentioned. I don't think you are 100% committed, but the read would make me want to call.

[Grisgra]

Like I said, I ended up betting ~$200 and was raised all-in . . . I called, and was shown 22 for the bottom set. Needless to say, I didn't improve /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I am seriously wondering about that call -- whether I'll be shown a semibluff or top pair or something worse than TT enough to make the call. You guys would have called in my spot, probably, it seems.

[ChrisV]

Some of the other replies here are seriously wrong headed. If you're going to just check raise allin on a flop like this then you might as well limp reraise allin preflop because you lose to JJ-AA either way and you aren't giving lower pairs the opportunity to make sets and bust you.

I would check this flop and most likely call a bet from the raiser, or check raise an obviously weak bet (but not allin). It's true that I'm giving a cheap card by doing this but I would rather let him hit an out than lose my stack with tens. Another good line is to bet out and fold to a raise. Normally I don't like doing this because it is too easy for aggressive players to take the pot off you as the bet-out is so obviously a hand you aren't sure about. If you were heads up versus me with AK, for example, I would raise this bet-out allin. The fact that it's 4 ways, with one guy acting after the raiser, should prevent him from doing this.

I prefer the check call line because it enables you to get away from the hand with no further loss in some circumstances (e.g. a limper bets and the raiser raises).

EDIT: My comment at the top about limp reraising preflop is perhaps a bit over the top, but my basic point is correct - your hand has not improved significantly just because the flop is all undercards. You're facing a raiser and two guys who called a raise, and you lose horribly to 7 different kinds of pocket pair. The flop you were really looking for was one containing a ten. Your hand is good enough to proceed, but CAUTIOUSLY.

[Michael C.]

I don't like checking the flop here because what do you do if the guy immediately after checks and then the last guy throws out a pot sized bet? Now if you call you have to worry about the guy behind you raising all-in, and then what do you do? Plus you don't want to give out a free card. I think I would bet 200 or so and then see what happens. If one guy raises all-in and the other folds, it would all depend on how likely I thought he had a set or a higher pair. A lot of the time he probably has you beat. More often than not I think 10's is the best hand given the way the action has went. Do you disagree with this logic?

[ChrisV]

I'd fold to the pot sized bet if I thought the guy was incapable of making a pot sized bet without a good hand (which is typical, at the limits I play at anyway). I'd CERTAINLY fold if I called and another player went allin over the top.

Do I agree that tens are probably the best hand on this flop? Yes. Do I agree that tens are probably the best hand if I check and the raiser makes a pot bet? On balance, no.

EDIT: Note that no limit play is never as simple as "I probably have the best hand, therefore bet". You're out of position, so the relevant question is how you can handle the hand without either going allin with the worst hand or getting pushed off the best hand. And the former is more important than the latter.