Kings v. Aces, but there's a wild card

[MRBAA]

At the club, 4-8, and the "wild card" is a person -- a maniac who's in almost every hand and betting/raising about 1/2 of them.

UTG bets, loose goose calls, wild card calls, I raise one off the CO with KK.

UTG three bets. LG and WC call two more and I cap it up.

UTG asks if he can raise again. He's a new player, only been at the table a few laps, seems a bit loose, a bit aggressive but decent. I think he's got a legit big hand.

Flop comes down AQT rainbow. I'm hating it, but with $68 in the pot I've got odds galore to draw to my gutshot alone.

UTG checks, LG bets, maniac calls, I raise.

My thinking here was to represent a set or AK and hopefully get UTG to fold, leaving me against LG and WC, with the option of taking a free turn or river. But I think there are so few hands UTG can have that didn't connect hugely with the flop that perhaps I should just call.

Anyway, UTG three bets, LG folds, WC calls, I call.

Turn comes a T, making the board:

AQTT

Ugh. UTG checks, WC checks, I check.

River comes an A, making the final board
a delightful AQTTA.

UTG bets, WC folds and, getting 14.5-1 I call in the hopes he has a crazily played JJ or 99-77.

He flips over AA for the quads -- giving me a little slow roll just for good measure.

I think the only really questionable play was the flop raise, but all opinions are welcome.

[chief444]

I think against someone fairly aggressive with very likely a better hand and a maniac in between I'm happy to see the turn for 1SB here.

[Munga30]

Call the flop for your initially stated reason. Assume UTG's question is real and not an act until shown otherwise. You're way behind all but JJ and that's not likely. Maybe you're drawing to a chop. Still a call, IMO.

Fine on the turn. Don't post results.

What did the wildcard have to do with this hand (other than make for a catchy post title)?

[PokerBob]

UTG's flop check screams "MONSTER". The flop raise is brutal IMO. What would he cap with that he can fold here to your raise? Not AA,KK,QQ, TT. AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KK. Maybe he could muck JJ, but would he cap with it?

I think you trapped yourself. The river had so many bets in it cuz you raised the flop.

Call the flop. Call the turn. Fold the river. Face up. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MRBAA]

I wasn't going to see the turn for one SB here, as UTG would have c/r'd the initial bet. Had it been checked to me, I'd have checked along fearing a c/r from UTG to clear the other two out.

[MRBAA]

Well, in the actual hand my flop raise cost me 1sb at most -- and may have saved me 1 bb on the turn. That's a mighty big laydown on the river in this pot, Bob, and I don't think I like it.

[Munga30]

You only saved money because UTG played this hand so poorly. You often face a turn bet. Are you calling?

[chief444]

Whoops. Misread it. I like it more now than before but I probably still just call.

[MRBAA]

I think it's likely UTG was going for a C/R on the turn. Remember, WC was still in the hand. Even though he wasn't a factor on the river, he was very much a factor in the play of the other streets.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, in the actual hand my flop raise cost me 1sb at most -- and may have saved me 1 bb on the turn. That's a mighty big laydown on the river in this pot, Bob, and I don't think I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your flop raise put an extra 2BB in the pot at the river (making it 14.5BB instead of 12.5BB), trapping you into calling the river. Given the action PF, I find it hard to believe that you are good here even 5% of the time.

It FEELS like a big laydown because it is KK, but everything points to the fact that you are beat.

[MRBAA]

My flop raise actually put an extra 1.5BB in the pot (if you assume that had I just called the same fold/call by LG and WC would have taken place when UTG c/r'd).

On the river, I definitely felt like I was beaten and debated a fold. But when WC folded and it was one BB in a big pot (whether 13bb or 14.5bb) against a player I didn't know that well, I opted to call. I'd have to know a player really well to fold that river (remember, a 2nd ace coming makes it somewhat less likely he has one in his hand.) In general, not making big laydowns for one bet on the river in big pots is my default play. Especially since I'd checked behind on the turn.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking here was to represent a set or AK and hopefully get UTG to fold

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no logical hand UTG could have with which he is folding here...but there are a number of hands with which he will three-bet.

[MRBAA]

I pretty much agree in retrospect. I suppose he might fold JJ or an overplayed 77-99 or some such. But this flop is so favorable to most of his likely hands that I'm probably better off just meekly calling. I was partly influenced by a desire to isolate LG and WC who were very likely to have nothing.

I made a somewhat similar flop raise against Bdk3clash in the same game last week, on a much more favorable flop but folded when he 3 bet because (a) pot was smaller (b) I know him well. He later commented that my flop raise was somewhat pointless (there was a third player in who called down) and that I would probably have been better advised to simply call.