I'm not sure I understand raising with a 2nd best hand

[dauler]

I've read about raising with what is likely to be a second best hand to improve your chances of winning a big pot, but I don't really understand the concept at all. I tried doing it here, can someone explain to me whether it's right or wrong, and how to do it right and why it is right?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

River: (7.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

[Roadstar]

You want to raise generally with a mid pair with an overcard kicker and/or a gutshot straight draw. The point of raising is to improve your chances of winning even though you're likely the underdog right now (still have outs). Also, it may buy you a free card on the turn if the Villain is afraid that you're C/R again.

Your example is NOT where you want to try this as you had no piece of the flop or any reasonable draws AND the board is paired.

Hope this helps

[Buck_65]

Fold this hand UTG every time from now on. Read Small Stakes Hold 'Em, then read it again, then one more time for good measure. You definitely don't understand the concept you speak of and must learn it before trying to apply it.

Limping with JTo UTG is a drastically losing play, acquire and read SSHE as soon as possible.

[bennyk]

This hand is not the time to raise with a second best holding. The best time to do this is as mentioned above, for example if you take a 4-way flop with A /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif
and the flop comes 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Typically if it's bet from close to your right, you should raise here to face the remaining players with 2 bets. This is different from the hand you posted because in this hand, you already have a piece of the flop, and you have backdoor flush potential.

The concept behind raising with the 2nd best hand is simple. Say you have a hand, X/images/graemlins/diamond.gifX/images/graemlins/heart.gif which will win 23% of the time against 4 opponents (notice that this hands wins more than its "fair share" of 20%, so it's pretty good in the first place). Then suppose the opponent to your right shows you a much better hand, Z/images/graemlins/heart.gifZ/images/graemlins/club.gif (which will win 50% of the time vs. 4 opponents), and bets. The correct play here is almost always to RAISE if:

a) the pot is large

b) the remaining players are likely to fold if faced with 2 bets

The reason for this is simple: by knocking out the rest of the players in the pot, you are "distributing" the remaining winning chances between your hand (XX) and your opponent's, better hand (ZZ). Now this may have made his hand a greater favorite to win, but it also helped your chances.

Say for instance by knocking out the other players in the hand, villain's chances to win go from 50% to 65%. That means your chances will go from 23% when 5-ways, to like 35% when heads-up. This doesn't mean you're 12% more likely to win; you've improved your winning chances by 50%!

It is counterintuitive, but with some thought, you'll be able to see countless situations where this makes sense, but I was too lazy to contrive at 5am.

Run a few samples in pokenum (http://www.twodimes.net/poker/) to see for yourself.

Try out with something like AA vs. JJ vs. three other hands and see how JJ's chances of winning the hand improve by knocking out opponents.

hope that helped,
bk

[Womble]

Good explaination! You raise to try and isolate the better. You want to cut down the people in the pot with a weak hand/draw (pair/two pair). You can also get hands better than yours to fold. ie if you have mid pair with T kicker, a mid pair + J kicker may fold.

You do not want to raise to eliminate if you have a strong draw sucha as a flush/straight. You want to raise for value here keeping many people in the pot. Sometimes waiting for the turn

[3rdEye]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold this hand UTG every time from now on. Read Small Stakes Hold 'Em, then read it again, then one more time for good measure. You definitely don't understand the concept you speak of and must learn it before trying to apply it.

Limping with JTo UTG is a drastically losing play, acquire and read SSHE as soon as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

He had JTs, which I'm pretty sure is safe for limping UTG according to SSHE.

[dauler]

It was JTs, which SSH suggests playing in EP in a loose game.

But I still don't understand, I tried running a few hands against A9s and KJ in your example shown, but A9s remained at around a 23 percent chance of winning regardless of the hands that you put in, unless you put in a strong draw like QT which wouldn't fold for 2 bets anyway on your board. To win with A9s on your board you have to hit another 9, an ace, or a flush, so you have about 6.5 outs against KJ, all of which make you nearly unbeatable. I don't see what hands you're trying to make fold except for low pocket pairs that could redraw for a set, but I can't imagine them having the odds to call for 1 bet either.

What does the relationship have to be between the board and your hand to make folding random hands increase your chances of winning on the flop? I figured it was a hand that if you make it is still very vulnerable to redraws, like my JT would have been if I had made a pair(although now I understand that I didn't increase my chances significantly because I was fairly sure that I was up against AK on the preflop raiser, and he wasn't going to fold, so the only thing that may have redrawn against me that I may have gotten rid of was a Q). If someone could come up with a clearer example showing how causing random hands(which wouldn't have the odds to stick around with a strong draw) to fold can increase a 2nd best hand's chances of winning, I'd appreciate it.

[chaz64]

I had a thread on this a while back:

Raising When Second Best (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1275958&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1)

According to Ed Miller, the mistake I made in analyzing a middle pair with overcard situation was that I assumed someone had top pair. If you knew that to be true, then raising would be an error, but since middle pair is often the best hand raising with it can be correct if it is likely to drive poeple out.

[chaz64]

Also:

Ed splains it to me... (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1338366&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=12&amp;vc=1)

[dauler]

So just to make sure I understood that whole thread correctly, you should almost never raise with what you are sure is a second best hand in hold'em because of the community nature of the board, and the concept is more suited to stud games?

[stone_7]

I think that what would have been the most +ev on the turn and the river is raising. Any reasonable holding this guy has that is not worth a raise should fold to a raise. even TERRIBLE hold'em players know enough to fold their ace high when there are four to a straight on the board. If you are reraised at any time it is an easy fold. you do have the second best hand but being aggressive in this case will be the most profitable play. If this moron does have a monster hand or only an ace and simply calls don't worry too much because you will soon have most of his money. you may have lost this pot but you will have gained priceless information about this guy's willingness to call with losing and winning hands.

[chaz64]

[ QUOTE ]
So just to make sure I understood that whole thread correctly, you should almost never raise with what you are sure is a second best hand in hold'em because of the community nature of the board, and the concept is more suited to stud games?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is how I understand it:

If you KNOW you are behind a bigger pair raising is likely a mistake. You can know this in a stud game, but you can't know this in HE. If, say, you can make two to four villains face two bets cold by a raise, where their calling would be a mistake for them, or where they would likely fold, you should usually raise. Good examples would be you have overcards and a weak draw, or middle pair with an overcard. Someone with middle or bottom pair with an overcard would be correct to call one bet but would fold for two bets. His folding may mean the difference between you winning or losing the pot later.

[bennyk]

Obviously, my example is not very good.

The hands you want to fold on that board are gutshots, singleton overs, and hands like K9 or Q9. Though these hands individually don't represent a strong chance of winning, if the pot is large you must raise to knock them out since

a) you may have the best hand

b) even if you are certain you have the second best hand, it will improve your chances of winning a big pot, which is worth the investment.

Thanks, chaz for including the idea that we aren't SURE we have the second best hand most of the time. This means the raise has several purposes! It's complicated!

bk