Most difficult poker game?

[The13atman]

I don't know if this is the right forum, but I didn't know where else to put it...

What does everyone think is the most difficult poker game to be "great" at? I know there is no clear cut definition of great, but which game takes the most skill?

I would think 7 card stud would be the most difficult to be a world class player at because memory is more important than in other games as you need to remember what up cards other players have folded.

Where do Hold'em and Omaha fit in? Razz? Draw poker?

Also, how do no limit, pot limit and limit hold'em compare to one another skillwise?

I'd be interested in hearing opinions from those who are well versed in many different games as I've mainly played limit hold'em and occasionally NL hold'em.

[soko]

Maybe razz?

[Sasnak]

The one I happen to be sitting at is the one which always seems to give me trouble.

[Iceman]

Pot-limit Omaha high is the most difficult game to master.

Among limit games, 7-card stud high is the most difficult.

Razz and limit Omaha-8 are the easiest games to get good at.

[Cheeseweasel]

nm

[bigmac366]

i've heard that 7stud/8 is the most difficult game to play at a world class level, but there must be some reason the main event of the wsop is no limit holdem.

[Beavis68]

I don't think PLO is that hard if you have the discipline to just peddle the nuts and have the bankroll to handle the swings. From a strategy stand point it is definitely not hard.

Stud and low-ball draw games give me fits.

[The13atman]

If you were going to make a list of games from hardest to easiest, what would it be?

I think it's interesting to note that many of the great players have different "best games." For example, according to Barry Greenstein, Johnny Chan's best game is PL Omaha, Phil Ivey's best game is 7 Card Stud, Howard Lederer's best game is Limit Hold'em, John Juanda's best game is Triple-Draw Lowball, etc. What traits make certain players better at certain games than others (besides experience of course)?


Maybe I'm the only one that thinks about this kind of stuff, I don't know. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[LuckYou777]

[ QUOTE ]
i've heard that 7stud/8 is the most difficult game to play at a world class level, but there must be some reason the main event of the wsop is no limit holdem.

[/ QUOTE ]

No Limit Hold'Em is the main event of the WSOP because its an action game. Makes for good fun to play, and to watch. And i do think its impossible to master. But, the toughest game to play at a world class level, in my opinion, is 7 stud hi.

best of "luck."

/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="green"> "3 Card" Monte Green </font> /images/graemlins/club.gif

[FakeKramer]

IMO, O8 is the hardest game. Even top pros disagree on the best strategy for it. Where something like limit poker, there is pretty much one generally well-understood winning strategy (tight aggression).

O8 is hard as hell, but God is it fun. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Iceman]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think PLO is that hard if you have the discipline to just peddle the nuts and have the bankroll to handle the swings. From a strategy stand point it is definitely not hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

That works in the Party $25 game, but in a deep money game with strong players anyone who just plays the nuts would get destroyed. Even if you flop the nuts, your hand is usually vulnerable to a large number of cards on the turn that potentially beat your hand, and if you fold to every possible outdraw other players will exploit this by bluffing you constantly and giving you no action when your hand is safe. Pot-limit Omaha is tougher than big-bet holdem precisely because strong hands are more vulnerable so you have a lot more tough decisions, and because hand reading is more difficult when you have four cards to think about.

[ QUOTE ]
Stud and low-ball draw games give me fits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think lowball is boring and mechanical if you play it limit at a full table, but it's a good game either no-limit or shorthanded limit. In limit lowball with four or fewer players, you have a lot of interesting situations where it's hard to decide what to keep and what to throw as well as how to bet.

[bholdr]

it's holdem. no doubt.

I think everyone is overlooking something, here.

The question was "which is the hardest game to be "great" at?" the only objective measure we have in poker is "the player vs the competition"

and there is more competition in holdem than in ny other game, more literature, more good players (quantitativly, not qualitativly).

it follows that, if there were an objective measure available, the best holdem players would be better than the best stud, omaha, draw, razz, etc players.

look at sports: the level of athleticisim in the NFL is a lot higher than the pro rugby- there are just more football players, so it stands to reason that the best football players are more talented than the best rugby players- same would go for poker.

this is, of course, all IMHO.

[Beavis68]

Ice, I think you have some good points, but I still don't agree- but oh well, I have never play a 25/50 PLO game. bluffs are very expensive at this game, and it doesn't take much to trap, is also doenst take much to recongnize a vulnerable nut hand. The swings are huge, but I don't think the required skill is. Of course the higher you go the more skill, but that is true of every game, you can make more money peddling the nuts in PLO and you ever will in holdem.

[goofball]

the big game at the bellagio was 4 handed with phil ivey, doyle brunson, and jennifer harman.

for the 4th person whatever they are playing seems like it would be the most difficult

[jomatty]

the world series main event is nl hold em because thats what they wanted to play at the first world serises. other tournaments were based on the world series so the game survived. its not because its the most difficult or most exciting(although a case could be made that it is one of the most difficult, although i think PLHE is more difficult imho)
razz and omaha 8 have got to be among the easiest. stud and stud8 i would think rate high on the difficulty scale
matty

[bearly]

well, mine is always an unpopular opinion when i use it in the 'chat' box during games. i thing the purist and most difficult form of poker in all the senses is 5 card stud--no-limit, table stakes. the only greater game is 5 card stud 'pocket stakes'---in truth in this game the final bet is negotiated. i once saw 10,000 acres of flax (just the crop) be deemed the equal of a section of iceburg lettuce (property included). my father -in -law was the manager of the bank in the area and he was the referee...........h

[Robrizob]

You've answered a different question.

[umdpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
well, mine is always an unpopular opinion when i use it in the 'chat' box during games. i thing the purist and most difficult form of poker in all the senses is 5 card stud--no-limit, table stakes. the only greater game is 5 card stud 'pocket stakes'---in truth in this game the final bet is negotiated. i once saw 10,000 acres of flax (just the crop) be deemed the equal of a section of iceburg lettuce (property included). my father -in -law was the manager of the bank in the area and he was the referee...........h


[/ QUOTE ]

it seems to me that the only skill needed in 5 card stud is reading physical tells, and maybe having huge balls. i think to be the most difficult game, a ton of skills should be necessary, with each skill equally important to succes. in other words, if you lack say 1 of 5 important skills, it is almost impossible to beat the game. i have no clue which game this most applies to though, as i have only played 7 card stud, and limit, pl, nl holdem. of these, i think pl holdem is the toughest, at least for my skill set.

[The13atman]

Well I'm glad this post has created some discussion.

What makes people feel that PL Hold'em is tougher than NL or limit? Does it mix the tougher aspects of both? (I've never played PL).

Also, as I mentioned in a different post, besides experience, why are some players so much better at one game as opposed to another? For example, what skill is needed more in Hold'em than in Stud or Omaha? The only one I can figure out is that memory is more important in Stud than in other games.

[shummie]

I think Pot-Limit is generally considered the toughest of the PL, NL, Limit variations.

Like No-Limit you have more options on the amount you bet, giving you more things to think about. However, there is more play after the flop in Pot-Limit because you can't bet too large preflop. If you consider postflop play tougher to master than preflop play, playing more postflop would make Pot-Limit tougher.

- Jason

[Iceman]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I'm glad this post has created some discussion.

What makes people feel that PL Hold'em is tougher than NL or limit? Does it mix the tougher aspects of both? (I've never played PL).

[/ QUOTE ]

NL adds a few additional elements to the game, like knowing when to overbet the pot and knowing how to respond to the overbets of others. But overall, being able to just go all-in in many situations rather than have to face further betting lets you eliminate uncertainties - in pot-limit you have more opportunity to outplay someone since you can't be shut out with a huge bet. No-limit is more profitable than pot-limit when you have complete idiots in the game, since they go broke a lot faster when they can easily shove their entire stacks in with inferior hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, as I mentioned in a different post, besides experience, why are some players so much better at one game as opposed to another? For example, what skill is needed more in Hold'em than in Stud or Omaha? The only one I can figure out is that memory is more important in Stud than in other games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Different games emphasize different skills.

Hand reading is important in all games, but it is rewarded to a much greater degree in limit holdem than in stud, Omaha-8, or stud-8. In stud it is often correct to chase even when you know your opponent probably has a better hand. As compared to holdem, the high-low games have a lot more situations where your play is basically automatic - it's much more common for you to be pretty sure what you're facing and what you need to do.

Stud has a lot more possible situations than holdem, because of the upcards and the fact that everyone gets their own hand. Even small changes in the ante structure vastly change the strategy, and game conditions can make a massive difference on play throughout the hand. As a result, a stud player has a lot more different things to adjust to than a holdem player, and the most important thing that separates a strong stud player from an okay stud player is being able to make those adjustments properly.

Stud-8 and Omaha-8 place more emphasis on strategies and less on reading players.

And in no-limit holdem, once you know the basic plays and decisions, being able to get a read on an opponent is far more important than anything else.

[bholdr]

explain.

[Matt Flynn]

pot limit is more difficult than no limit.

imo limit holdem is the most complicated to play at a world class level independent of the competition. try modelling it sometime. even in a limited model you run out of computing power quickly.

matt

[mosch]

Peddling the nuts is only an effective PLO strategy if you're up against really poor players. If you sit in a live PLO game every day and try this, you'll get creamed.

[cnfuzzd]

The question you are really asking is which game poses the player with the most difficult decisions. I would say it would easily be short-handed texas hold em. The pot size is usually small enough to not justify loose calls, and the decisions to be made are changed with every card and how it relates to your opponent and various third level thinking. A game like big bet stud, which from what i hear, usually has a high ante-to-bet ratio offers most of it difficult decisions onlt on 3rd and 4th street. Omaha is interesting, but learning to "master" the decisions made in this game where the balance between skill and luck is so skewed towards luck is kind of an excersize in masochistic thought. Not that im denigrating any omaha players out there, but it seems like even a big bet omaha game requires less skill to be successfull, while the skills the experts do have does very little to shield you from the massive swings in the game.

peace

john nickle

[Rudbaeck]

Short handed Omaha seems like an excercise in masochism.

[ZeeBee]

I think this very much depends on your definition of difficult.

If difficult = how much the game relies on memory then sure, 7-stud is it (of course, it's complicated for other reasons too).

If it's mathematical/technical complexity then maybe limit holdem.

If it's how much skill you need at hand/player reading, deception, etc. maybe NL Holdem.

Haven't Sklansky &amp; Malmuth both written about this in various Essay's (e.g. Poker Essays)

ZB