Live 1/2 KQo in the BB

[Ghazban]

A couple nights ago, I played a live 1/2 game where all the players are decent, though some have fairly large exploitable weaknesses. This game plays significantly tougher than the 1/2 casino game (Foxwoods) I'm accustomed to but the drive is much shorter and I feel it gives me a chance to play higher stakes-type players without having to risk higher stakes money (some of these players profit playing the 5/5 at Foxwoods regularly)

On to the hand:

I have KQo in the BB. 5 people limp in, SB completes, and I check (does anybody raise this?)

Flop: K32r ($14 in pot)

I lead for 10, one folds, EMP player makes it 30 and its folded back to me. He has about $75 left after the raise and I have him covered. He's solid but also capable of making a move, particularly after having shown down nothing but the goods in the hour preceding this hand. Other players have made comments that he is running well tonight and that he isn't as tight as his showdowns would imply. What's your move (including what you plan to do on the turn)?

Results to follow.

[amoeba]

I think I would have raised it preflop.

and I think I fold that flop to the raise most of the time.

What do you think about checking the flop instead of leading out as you did? Obviously I would only check the flop if I did not raise preflop.

[Ghazban]

The reason I didn't raise is because I don't want to define my hand out of position against good players. If I raise, I expect to get called in at least 2 places (not that I could definitely say which two would call). Playing KQo 3-way (or possibly even 4- or 5-way) out of position in a raised pot is not something I particularly look forward to.

[amoeba]

they always say you have to give info to get info.

I understand what you mean about not wanting to play in a raised pot out of position. I can go either way preflop. Sometimes I would check it preflop. It really depends on how I feel they would react to my flop autobet. If they are raising me with any 2 on the flop, then I would probably check it preflop.

what about a check on the flop then? I doubt with 5 thinking players, the flop will be checked through and there really isn't a draw you are afraid of besides somebody holding the 54.

what do you think about the check preflop, check call flop (probably HU at this point). Lead the turn line?

[Triumph36]

Raise KQo in the big blind? Why would you do that? If you get called, you have no idea where you're at, and good players will try to exploit that. If you think people will call with Kings and Queens with weaker kickers, then I guess you could do it.

On to this hand: A rainbow flop with only a straight draw. Unless he has 45, you are either way ahead or way behind. Problem is, he only has a pot bet left in his stack. This means if he is good, you will probably force him into the right decision if you set him all in here, or if you call this raise and then lead the turn. He will push with a set (and probably two pair) and drop kings with lower kickers than yours, except perhaps KJ and KT. Thing is, you are betting out of the big blind, so he could think you are betting any king.

I think I would call this raise and check the turn. It depends on your read whether you want to put him to the felt eventually in this hand. I would check the turn and check-raise him all in if he bet (because he'd be committed); if he went all in, I don't know what I would do. That one's read-dependent I think.

[amoeba]

I still don't think raising preflop is that bad.I would add any pocket pair to that list of hands they call with hoping for a set.

Lets say you are a thinking player. think of what hands you would limp in with preflop. now somebody out of the big blinds raises in to 5 players. think of what hands you would call with. Now, regardless of the flop, BB lets out again. do you really have the balls to raise him on the flop without something that will beat TP or overpair if its all unders?

[Drizztdj]

The villian could have limped in with 33, 22, or even slowplayed AK or AA. Or he has a small PP and is hoping to take it down right there.

[amoeba]

If he is as you described, I put villain on 54 or a set. There is no way he is raising KT, Kj here.limp with KT, KJ, raise the flop when you hit the K just seems like an awful way to play those hands.

[tbach24]

Limping from early he either probably has a PP, AK or KQ. I don't think a set would raise because of not wanting to eliminate players (unless you're the sort of person that opens with a semi-bluff and he knows that). So that narrows it down to AK, KQ, AA or a pp in between 88-JJ. I think you fold because AK and AA beat you, you split with KQ and 88-JJ aren't very likely. Fold. Hope that makes sense...

[Triumph36]

You're talking about one hand. In this particular hand, it may be right to do this.

But if you are sitting at the same table for a long time, and you are constantly raising out of the blinds with hands like KQo, you will be getting yourself into trouble. People who notice those sorts of things will be looking to trap you, and people who don't (these are usually the players who raise A9s or KJ from the SB) will go to the felt with top pair regardless. To mix it up, perhaps one should raise hands like this, but raising anything less than QQ-AK out of the blinds is asking for trouble eventually.

[amoeba]

I think for even a 3 hour live session, you don't get enough hands to have a KQ type hand in the BB that often. would you not raise JJ in the BB?

I would never raise everytime I have KQ in BB. It really is very table dependent.

I think the times that I do check in the BB with KQ, I like a check on the flop in a multiway pot better than a bet.

[amoeba]

I think you are overstating their propensity to trap me.

first of all, lets say they realize that I'm doing this out of the blinds (raising with KQ and the like).

in order to trap me, they would have to limp with a hand like KK, AA, QQ preflop. Doing this they risk letting other players in for too cheap so I don't see them doing this too often. and even if they did limp with these 3 hands, they would likely reraise preflop, at which point I can lay down.

The only hand that they can trap me with on the flop is a hand which can beat TPTK, period.

[Triumph36]

I think you're underestimating position.

I'm not saying they have to have AA, KK, or QQ. They could have 27 suited. All they have to do is call your raise, then call your flop bet when you have nothing but overcards. Are you really going to bet the turn there?

The best and worst part about this site is that so much of No-Limit Poker is dependent on a kind of instinct, and that so much of it depends on single hands which make up the "long-term" that we all talk about. I think raising KQo from the BB is a bad play in general. But if we're talking about raising hands from the BB and betting out on (just about) flop, why KQ? Why not 47 suited or 5J? That play can be made with any two. I am wondering what the advantage is to raising KQo, in particular, from the BB. It seems like it will drive out most hands you dominate and hands that call are hands like small pocket pairs, Ax, and any two broadway cards.

[DoubleDown]

Ghazban, it seems as if this player is willing to go to the felt with this hand as he has committed over 1/4 of his short stack with his flop raise. so if you are confident enough on a read that your TPGK is better than his holding (possibly 45, KJ, KT, A3, A2, JJ-44, etc.) I re-raise over the top to put him all-in on the flop.

The reason why I would not simply call his raise, is b/c on the turn I would want to fire another bullet, and if he re-raises again I am far too committed into the pot to drop the hand.

If this player is known to limp hands like KJ,KT more often than not raising AK,AA then i would put him all-in on the flop. its unlikely that he has a set, as most players would probably just call the flop bet on a rainbow board, and spring into action on the turn. if i know him to slowplay AA, or unlikely to raise AK preflop, then i fold on the flop, and get away from taking my TPGK to the felt after dumping only $12 (b/c IMO villain is taking this hand to the felt, as he's already committed nearly 1/4 his stack with the flop raise)

[amoeba]

yes I agree with you.

But you have to agree with me that when they hit with their 34s or 67s and call your flop bet, they probably have something that beats TPTK right? I mean, if I had AA in the BB and raised in to 5 limpers and somebody calls and I raise on the flop and he calls that too, there is a chance I am beat as well, right?

The fact of the matter is, I am repping AA-QQ, AK with my preflop move. There are no hands which are dominated by AA but dominates KQ (AQ, AK, KK, QQ) that would limp then call my BB raise. I am removing draws from a multiway pot the same way you would if you held AA in the BB and 4 limpers to you.

If I just check preflop with KQ, what I need happen is for me to hit TP, and all 4 other people to not hit their draw inorder to win. I also don't need somebody with say Kj to raise the flop and possibly push me off my KQ. And raising preflop accomplishes that or at least greatly reduce the chances of that happening.

I would rather play headsup with KQ out of position against 1 guy rather than play out of position against a much bigger field.

when you are raising preflop, you aren't doing it just for value.

If you are afraid of folding out hands you dominate, then you should by definition never raise preflop with AA, right?

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise KQo in the big blind? Why would you do that? If you get called, you have no idea where you're at, and good players will try to exploit that. If you think people will call with Kings and Queens with weaker kickers, then I guess you could do it.

On to this hand: A rainbow flop with only a straight draw. Unless he has 45, you are either way ahead or way behind. Problem is, he only has a pot bet left in his stack. This means if he is good, you will probably force him into the right decision if you set him all in here, or if you call this raise and then lead the turn. He will push with a set (and probably two pair) and drop kings with lower kickers than yours, except perhaps KJ and KT. Thing is, you are betting out of the big blind, so he could think you are betting any king.

I think I would call this raise and check the turn. It depends on your read whether you want to put him to the felt eventually in this hand. I would check the turn and check-raise him all in if he bet (because he'd be committed); if he went all in, I don't know what I would do. That one's read-dependent I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much what I did. I called the raise, a 9 came on the turn, I checked and he went all-in. My instinct told me he had KJs and believed I was holding a weaker king. A flopped set with people still to act behind would not necessarily raise the flop right away as the only draw out there is 54 (maybe A4 or A5 who felt lucky about hitting a gutshot) and getting an overcaller behind or (better yet) a raiser can get a lot more money in the pot. Personally, I'd smooth call a set on the flop and take the chance that I give 54 a chance and odds to catch up to get more of his money in.

I knew I shouldn't call the all-in here but I had an idiot moment and did. He flipped up 32s for bottom two and I failed to suck out on the river.

Just to add to the raise/not raise discussion about KQo into a large limped field from the BB, my thinking runs most in line with Triumph36's. You will not make much when you hit and make the best hand and tricky-good opponents can push you out on the flop or turn. FWIW, I'd limp JJ from the BB as well (in a cash game; in a tourney, I'm definitely raising) and play it for set/overpair value.

[amoeba]

Ghazban, Triumph, I respect both of your opinions very much and I used to play your way with KQ.

However, I've come to the realization that a hand like KQ only hits the flop 1/3 of the time, so 2/3 of the time, you are check folding the flop with KQ. the 1/3 of the time that you do hit the flop and you bet out, you either win a small pot right there because nobody has anything, or if you are called you have to hope they have TP worse kicker. This last situation simply does not come up often enough to make KQ profitable for me.

you are correct Ghazban that I will not make much when I hit with KQ and tricky opponents can push me off my pair, however you have to realize that I also win the pot a lot of the times when I don't hit. Now if I am playing against a table in which my preflop raise does not garner that much respect and I will get multiple callers, or perhaps the opposition is such good aggressive players that they'll try to push me off my one pair (whether real or implied) with any 2, then I probably won't raise preflop. Or if I'm playing against people who whether 3 unders flop, automatically puts the preflop raiser on AK, I probably won't raise preflop.

I feel that if you just check preflop, you must hit in order to win and unless if they also hit their top pair with lower kicker or is willing to pay for their draw, you will win only a small pot on the flop.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
Ghazban, Triumph, I respect both of your opinions very much and I used to play your way with KQ.

However, I've come to the realization that a hand like KQ only hits the flop 1/3 of the time, so 2/3 of the time, you are check folding the flop with KQ. the 1/3 of the time that you do hit the flop and you bet out, you either win a small pot right there because nobody has anything, or if you are called you have to hope they have TP worse kicker. This last situation simply does not come up often enough to make KQ profitable for me.

you are correct Ghazban that I will not make much when I hit with KQ and tricky opponents can push me off my pair, however you have to realize that I also win the pot a lot of the times when I don't hit. Now if I am playing against a table in which my preflop raise does not garner that much respect and I will get multiple callers, or perhaps the opposition is such good aggressive players that they'll try to push me off my one pair (whether real or implied) with any 2, then I probably won't raise preflop. Or if I'm playing against people who whether 3 unders flop, automatically puts the preflop raiser on AK, I probably won't raise preflop.

I feel that if you just check preflop, you must hit in order to win and unless if they also hit their top pair with lower kicker or is willing to pay for their draw, you will win only a small pot on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your reasoning but I still don't like it. As Triumph said earlier, why even bother doing it with KQ then? You might as well not even look at your cards, raise preflop, then autobet the flop hoping to take it down. In a game where this works frequently, I'd be doing it with all sorts of hands in all sorts of positions and would still check KQo in the BB, but for a different reason.

The reason is that, with the KQo, you can flop a good, but not great hand (TP2K, broadway draw) that you want to see a showdown with but don't want to be playing a big pot (unless, of course, you get top 2 or better on the flop) out of position. If you raise J4o in the BB, then autobet the flop, its really easy to get away if someone shows strength. With KQo, you're likely to flop something okay (K-high or Q-high flop) and a raise of your flop bet puts you to a difficult decision. As it says in one of the Sklansky books, don't turn your good hands into 72o.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
think raising KQo from the BB is a bad play in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, not sure why amoeba is preaching this. Maybe he thinks it's shorthanded? I ont like raising KQ out of theblind. And your'e right, if your plan is to autobet any flop, you can do that w/ any 2.

Full table I check and see a flop. This is a good flop and I like your flop bet.

I would call his flop raise and make a decision on the turn. Problem is, and this is where position rules, if he has any worse hands he can lose the least. If he has any better hands he can win the most.

I think reraising is bad, and folding is very weak. (20$ into 54 pot?) If you had a weaker kicker folding is better. (Or not even betting the flop)

As is he "could" have a set or AK, but I think you're ahead here most of the time. He COULD have KJ/KT as someone mentioned. Or the straight draw, I guess.

Best way to get money in vs worse hands is to bet like half pot on turn and the rest on the river. So maybe a stop and go is good. Hmm

[Triumph36]

My problem with raising KQo out of the blinds is that it gives away information without receiving any. Most bad players will call raises with most hands they limp, that's why they are bad players. KQo isn't beating a lot of hands players limp with, like A low kicker, small pocket pairs, and it doesn't dominate a lot of the drawing hands they like to see flops with. Most flops, you will have no idea where you are, and will have to bet, and if you get called, even less of an idea, even on a K or Q high flop.

Tricky aggressive players won't let 7 players limp.

I don't raise KQo from any position, and I fold it in early/middle position. I'll raise KQs in late position, but only in the kinds of games where players are loose/passive and easy to read. I don't like this hand in a full game. It is one of Brunson's trap hands for a reason.

[amoeba]

very good post Ghazban. I'll go over your points.

Now before I say anything, I'll state that I would only raise if I knew these were pretty solid players and the stack size was small enough to where they don't feel like they have a ton of implied odds. In other words, when I feel like I can get it heads up 90% of the time with a raise. When there are mostly solid players at your table, the chances of 4 limpers to the BB is greatly reduced, especially if its not a full table. Thus, I'm not doing this move all the time.

Now you are correct when you say that if my preflop raise is called, and they raise me on the flop when I hit, I have a difficult decision. But this decision is no more difficult than the one you faced in which you limped preflop, bet when you hit and got reraised. Nor is it a more difficult decision than if you say preflop raised with AK in mid position, got called by the button, hit your pair on the flop, bet and got raised by the button.

In some ways, its an easier decision for me because I know that the guy raising me doesn't have K, weaker kicker.

Now, thats examine which you think will happen more frequently. The probability that you limp in and play a 5 way pot and that somebody raises on the flop when you hit or the probability that I raise preflop, get it heads up, and they raise me when I hit the flop. Incidentally raising out of the BB assuming I can get it heads up is almost better than raising with KQ from say CO and get called from the button. I least when I get raised on the flop in the BB situation, I can safely say that villain doesn't have AK, AQ.

Now, on to why I don't do this with J5 or some other crappy hand. The reason is if I get a caller when I hit, and he calls me with a draw, I don't want his secondary out (unknown to him of course) (pairs up one of his hole cards) to beat me. Or if I hit with KQ and I can put him on an overplayed mid pocket pair, I can still beat him where as with any 2 I have to hit much harder and all I have is my initial bluff.

anways, I won't raise this against calling stations. If my table is full of calling stations, I prefer a check like you did but I also believe I check that particular flop. There is just no way that flop is going around checked through. and you'll definitely hear from a king or midpocket pair.

[amoeba]

what info do you get by checking preflop and betting the flop with KQ? you've given out that you have a K with that flop bet. the only way the info that you've given out works to your advantage is if they think your kicker is bad and calls you with KT, KJ.

By contrast, by raising preflop, I am representing AA, KK, QQ, AK, maybe JJ, depending on how I have been playing. I am giving away info but it is not true info. and I have the advantage of only giving that info to 1 person, assuming that my raise is good enough to get it heads up.

I have a much better idea where I am if I bet preflop, get it heads up, and bet the flop and get called than if I limp in preflop with 4 others, bet the flop and get called or raised. Think about which one happens more often. get called by 1 of 4 or get called by the person you are heads up with.
Also, because you limped in with KQ, you start overvalueing it because you feel that other's dont put you on that high a kicker when you hit, but really when they are raising your flop bet, they don't care what kicker you have. Either they are pure bluffing, semibluffing to a hand that beats top pair, or beat you already.

Yes tricky aggressive players won't let 5 let alone 7 players limp. which is what I am doing.

[coltrane]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I didn't raise is because I don't want to define my hand out of position against good players.

[/ QUOTE ]

by leading out like that on the flop, that's exactly what you're doing...

check/call the flop, lead the turn (probably fold to a raise).....

[GimmeDaWatch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reason I didn't raise is because I don't want to define my hand out of position against good players.

[/ QUOTE ]

by leading out like that on the flop, that's exactly what you're doing...

check/call the flop, lead the turn (probably fold to a raise).....

[/ QUOTE ]


His hand isnt that well defined, though, being in the big blind. With this sort of flop, unless villain's pretty loose, there's really only two hands he can have that beat you, 22 and 33 (assuming he'd Raise PF AK and wouldnt play weak suited kings or connectors as low as 23). With a hand like KJ or KT, he probably expects to beat your king/random kicker in the BB and would figure to raise accordingly. B/c you bet, the pot is already getting a little big, but I would call and see how strongly he plays the turn. If he's only got a medium king he may be wary of committing himself with a big bet. A weak lead may also give you the answer you're looking for. I dont like moving in on the flop at all b/c you probably fold all the hands you beat and give your stack to him if he's ahead.

[amoeba]

I somewhat disagree.

you say there are only 2 hands that beat you realistically 22 and 33. Lets ignore that somebody could limp in with 32s from late position, lets say they are tight enough, even though I think with many limpers in front, this is ok move.

Think of how many hands you beat that would play this way with a raise on the flop. you can only think of Kj and KT. But think again, would KJ and KT play this way on this flop? its about as drawless as they come. K32R. almost close to something like K72R. If he truly believed he had you outkicked, why try to drive you out with a raise? you can't possibly call his raise with k8, k9. Also, is he really going to raise with KT thinking the T kicker is good enough? Isn't it really only KJ that might possibly play this way and even then its not very likely? I mean hell, you might have hit K3, or K2 out of the BB, he doesn't know that. Is he really going to raise with KJ even?

again, if you think the guy is solid, then its either a set or 54. If you think he is looser, you can add 32 to that list. But there is no way he is raising KT, KJ.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
But there is no way he is raising KT, KJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with this. He can raise KJ or KT then fold to a reraise knowing he's beat. If he just calls and is bet into again on the turn, how does he know where he's at?

[amoeba]

if he really thinks you have K weak kicker, then he should just let you bet off your stack. He isn't really afraid of you catching anything and its possible you have 2 pair.

I think a raise with KJ, KT is horrible. you fold out dominated hands, if reraised, you have to fold, if called you still don't know where you are. would you raise 1/4 of your stack with KJ KT on that flop? especially KT. You are BB, you can have KJ, KQ, K3, K2, 32, 33, 22. would you really bet that flop with K4, K5, K6, K7 in a 7way pot?

I still maintain that raising with KJ, KT is horrible on that flop.

I believe that often the most profitable hands are ones where you don't know where you are.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
if he really thinks you have K weak kicker, then he should just let you bet off your stack. He isn't really afraid of you catching anything and its possible you have 2 pair.

I think a raise with KJ, KT is horrible. you fold out dominated hands, if reraised, you have to fold, if called you still don't know where you are. would you raise 1/4 of your stack with KJ KT on that flop? especially KT. You are BB, you can have KJ, KQ, K3, K2, 32, 33, 22. would you really bet that flop with K4, K5, K6, K7 in a 7way pot?

I still maintain that raising with KJ, KT is horrible on that flop.

I believe that often the most profitable hands are ones where you don't know where you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't raise (as a KJ or KT in MP), you could end up calling off all your chips to the BBs K3o or K2o, not to mention that any card that falls could give BB two-pair. Say you smooth call with KJs and the turn is an 8 and you get bet into again-- what do you do now? Maybe that gave him two pair, maybe not. The more cards you give BB, the more ways he can have your TPGK beat. As he's in the blind, you can't rule out Kx for ANY x.

[amoeba]

yes its possible he calls off all his chips to k2, k3, its also possible that you bet off all your chips with K lower kicker.

I think its more likely for you to have K lower kicker, so I believe that especially in position, the more EV move with KT, KJ is to call.

I am not that afraid of giving a card as you only have 3 outs and the odds of the turn and river paring my J in the you have K3, K2 case is the same as the odds of you paring your lower kicker in the lower kicker case. The biggest problem with smoothcalling the flop with KJ instead of raising is that if a 5 comes or a 6 comes, you can bluff and I might be forced to lay down. So I admit there are some problems with this.

But you are putting in a lot of money finding out where you are when you raise. I'm not sure that its that much less than calling off some chips especially if villain (you in this case) is likely to value bet with 1/3 pot bets.

[Ghazban]

All right, what do you do in this situation-- you smooth call, the turn is an 8, and BB checks to you (assume everyone else folds). If I had K-weak in the BB and got called on the flop, I would check the turn almost no matter what. If I hit my kicker, I can checkraise, if I miss and you bet, I can throw my hand away fairly confident I'm behind. I don't see KJ getting any money out of a weaker king regardless of if you let the turn come or simply raise the flop. The benefit of raising the flop is that you get the bad king to either make a mistake by calling or you win the pot right there. By calling with KJ/KT, you're (essentially) slowplaying a one pair hand and that is almost never correct.

[amoeba]

I check it through. value bet the river if checked to, he might call here with a weaker kicker. I think if he paired up his 2 pair, he would probably value bet the river for 1/3 or 1/2 pot instead of checking it again. I would of course call his value bet on the river.

I expect most of the time him to not pair up his kicker being that its a 3 outer.

Now we must examine the opposite. By calling the flop instead of raising, I also sometimes get the J on the turn when he has K3, k2, 32. This happens with the same probability as him paring up in the former case.

The difference is, If I pair the J, I can take him for his stack in this case.


In the first situation, if he gets two pair, he will only win a small pot from me especially if he checks the turn.

[amoeba]

in fact now that I think about it. the dreaded minraise from KJ is better than raising to 30.

If you are only looking for info, the minraise is fine. I doubt the K9 will call the minraise or reraise it. 2 pair will reraise it and you can fold for less.

The only advantage the raising to 30 gets you is that it has a better folding equity if you are holding KQ, AK.

[AncientPC]

I check KQo in BB, your position sucks.

I check raise, or if it's checked around I lead out on the turn.

If he calls the check raise, I lead out on turn and blocking bet on the river.

The way I see it, seeing as nobody raised pre-flop your kicker is probably good. Button could be raising with an OESD, or it's even possible that he may have a 2 pair from playing Kxs or a set.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
again, if you think the guy is solid, then its either a set or 54. If you think he is looser, you can add 32 to that list. But there is no way he is raising KT, KJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a really good point.

Then again, he could be raising for value w/ those aforementioned hands (or even KQ as well, for a chop) looking to check the turn / call the river.

It's tough in his spot to just call the flop, as if/when Hero bets the turn, Villain would be put into a spot w/ those hands if his kicker is anygood. (or if BB did stumble across a random 2pair)

[amoeba]

hehe theres been a plethora of posts between me and ghazban on that topic. I think there is almost more discussion of the villain's play than the Hero's between us two.