A quick Pre-Flop Quiz

[crockett]

I am presenting four pre-flop situations. I would like you not only to provide your answers but also how close you think your decision is. I.e. no brainer, marginal call, etc. and whatever comments you might have.

Hand #1

Villians -- CO Vp=24 pfr=6 after 33 hands, Button = Vp=23 pfr=15 after 13 hands, SB Vp=61 pfr=0 after 38 hands and BB Vp=71 pfr=3 after 31 hands.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, MP1 folds, Hero...

Hand #2

Villians UTG+1 vp=61 pfr=0 after 38 hands, MP1 vp=71 pfr=3 after 31 hands, MP3 vp=42 pfr=8 after 26 hands and CO vp=63 pfr=0 after 27 hands.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.75.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO (poster) calls, Button folds, SB folds, Hero....

Hand #3

Villians -- MP1 Unknown, MP3 vp=52 pfr=0 after 21 hands.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG posts a blind of $1.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero...

Hand #4

Villians -- UTG Vp= 71 pfr=0 after 42 hands, MP1 vp=50 pfr=0 after 28 hands, MP2 vp=32 pfr=19 after 125 hands and MP3 vp=48 pfr=3 after 29 hands.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO (poster) folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero....

[TwoShedsJackson]

Hand 1: I raise hoping to get the button and so have position on two loose players with a hand that will generally be better than theirs. This is quite clear cut. In my more passive days I probably would have limped.

Hand 2: A definite reraise with such loose opposition.

Hand 3: Out of position against a raiser and cold caller with a speculative hand, this is a clear fold.

Hand 4: Out of position again, this time with a hand frequently dominated by a raiser, but you have the BB discount - I would usually fold but this is closer than the others.

[Verdi]

1. Call. No brainer. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
2. Call. 10 10 will need help from the flop and you won't gain anything by kicking out people who could pay you when you do get a favourable flop. A set or all lower cards... (hopefully all the flush hunters and Axo's are out already)
3. Fold. No brainer. That hand is marginal and only have value post flop. Why pay extra to see that flop?
4. Fold. No brainer. Q 10 is not so strong and it just costs too much to see that flop.

[kenberman]

hand 1: raise to buy the button and isolate the weak players
hand 2: call. Poster cold-calling is almost the same as him raising, meaning your TT is probably not a big favorite.
hand 3: fold. you won't be getting odds to draw. this is a good hand in a big pot, but not a small one.
hand 4: this is close, but I probably call. you can call 1 bet from the BB w/ QTo here I think.

[Marquis]

1: Easy raise.
2: Raise but I think it's marginal between raising and calling. I know people disagree with me.
3: Fold. Give me one more caller and I might call it.
4: Easy fold.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #1

Villians -- CO Vp=24 pfr=6 after 33 hands, Button = Vp=23 pfr=15 after 13 hands, SB Vp=61 pfr=0 after 38 hands and BB Vp=71 pfr=3 after 31 hands.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, MP1 folds, Hero...


[/ QUOTE ]
the 7-handedness makes this an easy open raise for me, yay aggression.
[ QUOTE ]

Hand #2

Villians UTG+1 vp=61 pfr=0 after 38 hands, MP1 vp=71 pfr=3 after 31 hands, MP3 vp=42 pfr=8 after 26 hands and CO vp=63 pfr=0 after 27 hands.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.75.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO (poster) calls, Button folds, SB folds, Hero....


[/ QUOTE ]
raises because he probably has the best hand, but I should be more comfortable about these situations than I am.
[ QUOTE ]

Hand #3

Villians -- MP1 Unknown, MP3 vp=52 pfr=0 after 21 hands.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG posts a blind of $1.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero...


[/ QUOTE ]
easy easy easy fold. I need some more coldcallers of that raise to want to play.
[ QUOTE ]

Hand #4

Villians -- UTG Vp= 71 pfr=0 after 42 hands, MP1 vp=50 pfr=0 after 28 hands, MP2 vp=32 pfr=19 after 125 hands and MP3 vp=48 pfr=3 after 29 hands.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO (poster) folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero...


[/ QUOTE ]
an easier fold than the last with a potentially dominated offsuit hand out of position. I'm calling QTs here though, likely.

[Marquis]

I haven't played 6-max yet but I'm pretty sure KJo is an open-raise from anywhere. 7-handed and two folders in front can't be that much different from opening in a 6-max game.

[jrz1972]

Hand #1: Raise. You're hoping to fold out the CO and Button (who are both tightish) so you'll have position on the looser players in the blinds. I would fold if not short handed. As it is, I think this is a pretty clear line.

Hand #2: Reraise. TT is a premium hand so you should be happy to build a pot with it. No-brainer.

Hand #3: Fold. Not enough limpers to justify calling here. Easy decision.

Hand #4: Fold. Off-suit, dominated hand out of position. I would definitely call with 54s facing four opponents, but QTo does not play well in a multiway pot. No-brainer.

[crockett]

Thanks for taking the time to make a reply.

I want to add my thoughts and hopefully get some feedback on them.

Hand #1.

For me this seems like a fairly clear raise. First in and we only had 7.

I’d rate raise probably about an 8 out of 10.

Hand #2

My automatic reaction is 3-bet. We all know the reasons, blah, blah. But I’m now approaching a major number of hands under my belt (100K+) and I still don’t get excited when I’m holding TT on BB and someone raises and the pot is obviously going multi-way. In fact, I usually think “Great, I should 3-bet here because all the books and pros tell me to but I’m about to lose some money here.”

In this particular case the people who are going to flop are horribly loose so I think a 3-bet is a must. But if the opposition was more tight, like 4 people with 18-25% VP$IP, I think I really lean towards calling and hoping for a good flop.

Hand #3

It’s unanimous. Just checking sanity here. I passed.

Hand #4

I failed. In my current game this is an easy complete. The pot is going 5 way so I’m getting 1 to 10 to make the call and very little chance that it will be 3-bet unless UTG is pulling a limp reraise. I’m not saying I’m right, I just think I need some serious convincing as to why I’m wrong. For me it is easy to let this go on the flop unimproved but it makes a nice hand and a big pot if I happen to flop an OESD, two pair. or a TTx flop. Granted hitting top pair with crappy position is where it becomes a money leaker.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #4

I failed. In my current game this is an easy complete. The pot is going 5 way so I’m getting 1 to 10 to make the call and very little chance that it will be 3-bet unless UTG is pulling a limp reraise. I’m not saying I’m right, I just think I need some serious convincing as to why I’m wrong. For me it is easy to let this go on the flop unimproved but it makes a nice hand and a big pot if I happen to flop an OESD, two pair. or a TTx flop. Granted hitting top pair with crappy position is where it becomes a money leaker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you also play T8o in this situation? That hand has just as much a chance of making an oesd, two pair, or trips as QTo.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, MP1 folds, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

open-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #2

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.75.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO (poster) calls, Button folds, SB folds, Hero....

[/ QUOTE ]

call. bet-hopeTo3bet the flop with a set. look to check-raise an otherwise favorable flop to isolate overcards. a 3-bet hurts your chances to win this with a pair. the CO poster may have a junkier hand than normal and be more inclined to fold on the flop.. putting you in great relative position to check-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #3

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG posts a blind of $1.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

meh, fold i guess.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #4

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO (poster) folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero....

[/ QUOTE ]

easy muck

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]

I just think I need some serious convincing as to why I’m wrong


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think calling is punishable by death, so I can't give you a rock solid reason not to call. but I'll give you a couple of reasons I don't feel good about it.

1: I complete this out of the SB too, but my implied odds are much much better when I'm paying half an SB to enter a 5 sb pot than when I pay one SB to enter a 10 SB pot, even though I'm getting the same pot odds. facing a raise, my implied odds get screwed.

2: even if I flop an OESD, my equity of that pot is only ~30%. still good, but yeah.

3: I lose the additional benefits of flopping a flush draw or a flush.

4: since I'm calling a raise and not completing, I make the pot just big enough to say to myself "hmm, I can't fold this for one bet, can I?" if I flop just a queen or a ten. don't worry, this happens to me too, even when I say "I fit or I fold"

[Steelers36]

#1 Call

#2 Call

#3 Fold

#4 Fold

Steelers36

[Bez]

Hand 1: raise
Hand 2: re-raise
Hand 3: fold
Hand 4: fold

[SlantNGo]

Hand 1: Limp if CO &amp; Button are both loose, raise otherwise.

Hand 2: I just call here. JJ I will 3-bet.

Hand 3: I said call, but I like to call a lot with suited connectors for 1 more bet. Possible leak in my game.

Hand 4: Easy fold. Offsuit, 1-gapped, not suited, and a great risk of domination.

[Yads]

Wow, I can't beleive the consensus is to call for one more bet with 45s in the BB. Don't forget there's dead money in the pot from UTG, who might also call. You're getting 6:1 on your call, with 2 or maybe 3 opponents. With 2 opponents, you don't even need to hit your flush to take the pot. You can A, hit a pair, or B force them off the pot. Granted you're out of position, but getting 6:1 to call I'd play this.

[Sarge85]

fold - not close
call - not close
fold - not close
fold - not close

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]

fold - not close


[/ QUOTE ]

7 handed?

[Joe B.]

hand 1 - call
hand 2-raise
hand 3-fold
hand4-fold

[Shillx]

1. Raise. Not even close.
2. Reraise. Not even close.
3. I fold here. Getting 7:1 against an unknown isn't enough for me. I wan't people playing in pots like this so I can get a sweet reward if I connect.
4. Fold. Dominated.

Brad

[btspider]

shill, why raise #2? a 3-bet out of position with TT isn't the greatest of margin pushing. wouldn't you rather set up a flop check-raise on a nice board with your vulnerable pair? the CO poster doesn't figure to hang around all that often, so you'll be immediately on the PF raisers left in a non-bloated pot.

that said, JJ i raise.. so its kinda close. do you 3-bet 99 here?

[itsmesteve]

Hand 1. If i've seen the CO and Button cold call some raises (despite ok-ish stats) i'll call. If they'll fold I'm raising to isolate blinds w/ position.

2- Rasie, no brainer.
Edit- then again, maybe not /images/graemlins/blush.gif
3- I'll fold due to the small number in the pot, bigger pot i'd call easy.

4- fold, too easily dominated, weak hand out of position.