Does this AQ look about right?? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Alexthegreat

01-13-2005, 07:34 AM

Live 4/8 Kill game...I've been playing for about 10 hours and am winning just enough to avoid losing my entire buy-in...Other than that, I'm getting killed. I have like 60 bucks on the table at this point, and I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go on serious tilt if I have to rebuy....

I get AcQc UTG....I freakin raise and get cold called by two middle position players who suck, and the BB calls...This was not a kill hand.

Flop comes T 3 6 Rainbow....

BB checks, I check, Suckface bets, Suckface 2 calls, BB calls, I call??

Turn is the Q of spades, putting 2 spades on the board or something....Anyways, BB checks, I check, Suckface bets, Suckface 2 calls, BB calls and I checkraise

Yes???

private joker

01-13-2005, 07:46 AM

I'd bet out on the turn. If Suckface raises, it charges the other Suckface with 2BB if he wants to draw to beat you. Also, if Suckface isn't scared of the Q, you might want to reconsider the strength of your hand.

Alexthegreat

01-13-2005, 07:59 AM

I didn't want to bet and be raised and have everyone fold for 2 bets.....I WAS ready to check-call the turn and lead the river, but I noticed that suckface2 and the BB called, and I thought..."hmm, even if I'm behind to some haggard two pair, if these guys are both calling, they really should be calling another bet"

That lead me to the check-raise....

(Plus I really wanted to make a big pot....I know that is bad....)

BetTheFlop

01-13-2005, 10:18 AM

chief444

01-13-2005, 10:33 AM

This pot is 4-way. The other was 3-way. Here he open raised and was cold-called by two people. The other hand he was against the button who open limped and the BB.

There is a fairly big difference.

I think this hand was played fine.

Edit...
[ QUOTE ]
Live 4/8 Kill game...I have like 60 bucks on the table at this point

[/ QUOTE ]
That is not fine. If you plan to rebuy anyway, then just pull the money out now. Don't be one of those players who routinely has between 0-10 BB's on the table and is routinely pulling one or two $20's at a time out.

Rico Suave

01-13-2005, 10:36 AM

Alex:

I like the turn c/r.

--Rico

Fat Nicky

01-13-2005, 10:37 AM

I like it. These monkeys could be betting and calling with anything, the Q likely gave you the best hand, building a huge pot here is fine.

PokerBob

01-13-2005, 10:42 AM

First, I often play 4/8 and don't like having less than 12 BB in front of me. Being short stacked is bad news. Rebuying shouldn't put you on tilt. Focus on making the right plays. On to the hand.......

I think you butchered this one badly.

Bet the flop here. You raised PF. They expect it. Your bet may take it down, and if not you have 6 outs to TPgootK.

I hate the turn c/r. You have trapped the field with TPTK. Your hand is not all that strong. Lead the turn and give them a chance to muck.

chief444

01-13-2005, 10:57 AM

Why is trapping the field with a hand that is likely the best a bad thing here?

Fat Nicky

01-13-2005, 10:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop here. You raised PF. They expect it. Your bet may take it down, and if not you have 6 outs to TPgootK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like betting out into 4 players, whether you raised pre-flop or not. There is a very slim chance they will all fold.

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the turn c/r. You have trapped the field with TPTK. Your hand is not all that strong. Lead the turn and give them a chance to muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should you have any reason to believe that you're not good here? You're up against weak players that will probably call bets w/middle pairs or draws, why not trap them for 2 bets.

PokerBob

01-13-2005, 11:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is trapping the field with a hand that is likely the best a bad thing here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm not so sure it is the best hand. No one slowed down when the Q hit.

chief444

01-13-2005, 11:06 AM

No one slowed down? No one has even hit second gear yet.

PokerBob

01-13-2005, 11:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I don't like betting out into 4 players, whether you raised pre-flop or not. There is a very slim chance they will all fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but someone with bottom pair may fold. Betting here will potentially limit the field and buy yourself a few outs (namely the A's). Why check and potentially let them draw for free?

[ QUOTE ]

Why should you have any reason to believe that you're not good here? You're up against weak players that will probably call bets w/middle pairs or draws, why not trap them for 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, I'm not sure. I guess if I had AQ and a Q hit the turn, I'd think I was good. That said, checking here is a disaster IMO. The Q is an overcard to the board, which may scare the original flop bettor.....what if it checks through?

rmarotti

01-13-2005, 02:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I freakin raise. . .

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's a special kind of raise /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Alexthegreat

01-13-2005, 04:21 PM

I thought that 60 bucks was just about enough to bet me through this hand...I was ready to rebuy soon, but I still had faith!!!

Anyhow...Everyone called the turn bet, the river was a big fat brick, and everyone folded after I bet out.....

Thanks everyone for their replies

LImitPlayer

01-13-2005, 04:47 PM

Bet the turn..

runa

01-13-2005, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Betting here will potentially limit the field and buy yourself a few outs (namely the A's)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually if you already have TPTK and the ace falls doesn't that give you the best two pair? You're not really looking to clean up outs here.

Fat Nicky

01-13-2005, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting here will potentially limit the field and buy yourself a few outs (namely the A's)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually if you already have TPTK and the ace falls doesn't that give you the best two pair? You're not really looking to clean up outs here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe he was talking about the flop.

PokerBob

01-13-2005, 04:59 PM

runa

01-13-2005, 05:15 PM

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

I think betting the flop here isn't likely to clean much out since they've already CC 2 PF and are likely loose types who aren't going to fold for 1 SB on the flop. You have bad position and are stuck on the turn if you don't pick up your draw or pair up. If you treat it like a weak draw, you are better off checking and calling rather than betting and getting called in several places.

Freakin

01-13-2005, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I freakin raise. . .

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's a special kind of raise /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn straight.

Freakin

BottlesOf

01-13-2005, 05:33 PM

Yea, i bet the flop. 3-ways, 4-ways, I like to bet flops. 5-ways, now I'm reconsidering.

StellarWind

01-13-2005, 05:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Live 4/8 Kill game...I've been playing for about 10 hours and am winning just enough to avoid losing my entire buy-in...Other than that, I'm getting killed. I have like 60 bucks on the table at this point, and I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go on serious tilt if I have to rebuy....

[/ QUOTE ]
In my eyes you are already on tilt. You are making the serious error of playing shortstacked to avoid the emotional consequences of rebuying.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes T 3 6 Rainbow.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's important to say whether you flopped a club.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like betting out into 4 players, whether you raised pre-flop or not. There is a very slim chance they will all fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fat Nicky, I only count three opponents.

With this arid board there is a substantial chance that we have the best hand. We are betting for several reasons:

1. To protect our possible best hand. We don't want to give a free card to the 6-out trash draws when we have the best hand.

2. When we don't have the best hand someone will usually bet behind us and then we have to call. It's usually better to take the initiative and bet yourself instead of checkcalling.

3. Occasionally someone makes the mistake of folding a better hand.

4. We have quite a bit of pot equity through our chance of having the best hand, our outs, and our bluffing prospects. The EV cost of betting cannot be that great in comparison to the advantages gained.

5. Strategically, we are ensuring that our overpairs get paid in this situation.

The turn checkraise is a good play if it is going to work. Getting people to pay 2 BB each to chase TPTK in a 6 BB pot is very profitable. It all depends on whether you can trust your opponent to bet because a free card would be awful. "Sucks" is not an adequate read to answer that question.

PokerBob

01-13-2005, 05:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you treat it like a weak draw, you are better off checking and calling rather than betting and getting called in several places.

[/ QUOTE ]

I respectifully disagree. I showed strength PF. If I know I'm gonna call, I'm gonna bet. Who's with me?!?!?!?!?!

StellarWind

01-13-2005, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you treat it like a weak draw, you are better off checking and calling rather than betting and getting called in several places.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly why is that? Costs exactly the same.

Why do you assume we are drawing? Someone has to make a pair on a flop of T63r? You could easily be ahead 30% of the time here. You can't just ignore that.

Unless someone is willing to risk raising the PFR you have two choices:

1. Bet out and usually be called but sometimes get lucky.

2. Check. Now the opponents behind you will probably bet if they can beat AK and check if they can't. When you are drawing you usually have to pay anyway. When you are ahead they usually take a free card. Oh joy, what a good deal /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

BottlesOf

01-13-2005, 05:58 PM

You concisely and convincingly lay out the reasons why we bet the flop. Nice.

runa

01-13-2005, 06:06 PM

I normally do bet out on the flop, but I tend to draw the line at 3-way. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise if you have a backdoor flush draw. If you bet and are raised, which isn't that uncommon, you will be paying 2 bets on the flop, when instead you are likely to pay only 1 by checking and calling or see the turn for free. 4-way is right on the line though. I also think if anyone suspects you have overcards they will raise you anyway with any piece of the board or any mid-low PP and probably take the pot down with a turn bet if a blank falls, and will only have to succeed 40% (or less if others call) of the time to break even. If I don't hit it on the turn I'm usually folding unless I'm pretty sure I can get it HU which seems unlikely, so I'd rather pay 1 SB instead of 2 SB to get there.

Alexthegreat

01-14-2005, 04:15 AM

I will bet this flop next time......nice post for sure!

Thanks guys!