Should we end our aid efforts to Indonesia, now that they want us out?

[Broken Glass Can]

Indonesia denies U.S. pilots use of airspace; carrier leaves (http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050113-125739-6065r.htm)

[tek]

I say let all those countries take care of themselves. We have people in this country that need help. We don't need to help podunk countries that spit on us.

When I donate money or good used items, they go to local charities not to foreign countries.

[Cyrus]

As reported in the very article (http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050113-125739-6065r.htm) you cite, the Indonesian government is smack in the middle of a separatist war in Aceh, the island hit by the tsunami. They are (understandably?) nervous about having a bunch of foreign armies around. So far, their reaction doesn't look like some specifically anti-American move.

What was special about the American presence there, though, was the request by the US Navy aircraft carrier's commander to be allowed to use Indonesian airspace for ...military exercises!

The grounds for that extraordinary request was this: "Under Navy rules, pilots of carrier-based warplanes cannot go longer than 14 days without flying, or their skills are considered to have degraded too far and they have to undergo extensive retraining."

But if that's the case, then the U.S. should not have sent the carrier there, in the first place, but try and help some other way, as Germany, Britain and Australia are (and they are not undertaking any "military exercises" incountry). What if "US Navy rules" required that bombing exercises be conducted every fortnight?

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]


What was special about the American presence there, though, was the request by the US Navy aircraft carrier's commander to be allowed to use Indonesian airspace for ...military exercises!

The grounds for that extraordinary request was this: "Under Navy rules, pilots of carrier-based warplanes cannot go longer than 14 days without flying, or their skills are considered to have degraded too far and they have to undergo extensive retraining."



[/ QUOTE ]

I highly doubt the Navy wanted to conduct any sort of exercise. They merely needed to get aircraft airborne so they could stay current in carrier landings. Given the amount of assistance the US has provided, I dont find this to be an unreasonable request.

[ QUOTE ]
But if that's the case, then the U.S. should not have sent the carrier there, in the first place, but try and help some other way, as Germany, Britain and Australia are (and they are not undertaking any "military exercises" incountry). What if "US Navy rules" required that bombing exercises be conducted every fortnight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if that were the case than if Indonesia had any active bombing ranges than we would ask to use them most likely if they were still intact. They dont have any. They do have airspace though and frankly their refusal is pretty big slap in the face given all that the USA has done for them thus far.

[Cyrus]

In other words, you see no problem with the US sending aid to a country in dire need of help on the condition that the US is allowed to conduct military manoevers in that country's airspace.
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[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
In other words, you see no problem with the US sending aid to a country in dire need of help on the condition that the US is allowed to conduct military manoevers in that country's airspace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds kind of silly doesn't it. I can imaging the outcry if foreign aid after 9/11 was conditioned on conducting military exercises over the US.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
In other words, you see no problem with the US sending aid to a country in dire need of help on the condition that the US is allowed to conduct military manoevers in that country's airspace.
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[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the attempt at distorting my words and the situation. We didnt send the aid contingent upon allowing us to conduct flight operations in the area. It was a request that went to the reality of the situation, that is, in order to stay on station here we need to be able to conduct flight operations. And the request occurred after we had been providing the assistance for some time. Indonesia refused and our hands were tied. Pilots have to maintain currency or that carrier is no longer fully mission capable. Its as simple as that.

[ThaSaltCracka]

whats the problem here Cyrus, the Navy pilots just want to fly and practice carrier landings. I think its pretty absurd for the Indonesian government to prevent this.

But whatever, if they don't want them to fly then they should leave. Those carriers cost a lot to maintain and to operate. Also, those pilots have gone through extensive and expensive training. If they are not allowed to maintain their flying skills through constant practice they will have to be retrained, which again cost a lot. I think the Indonesian government is being pretty silly here.

BTW, I did read your first post and the point about the civil war was taken and understood, and IMO is a good point.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In other words, you see no problem with the US sending aid to a country in dire need of help on the condition that the US is allowed to conduct military manoevers in that country's airspace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds kind of silly doesn't it. I can imaging the outcry if foreign aid after 9/11 was conditioned on conducting military exercises over the US.

[/ QUOTE ]whats even more silly is your attempted analogy here. Come on Elwood, I expect good things from your posts.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Come on Elwood, I expect good things from your posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's your problem, not mine.

What's wrong with the analogy? If the exact same situation happened to us and the roles were reversed, there is NO WAY IN HELL that we would allow the flights.

[ThaSaltCracka]

you are making the assumption that a foreign country would actually send us something in the form of help and aid. Also, it is nearly unlikely any country would send a military vessel to assist us with anything.

[elwoodblues]

You are correct, I am making that assumption. Assuming it's true, there is no way the US would allow it.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
You are correct, I am making that assumption. Assuming it's true, there is no way the US would allow it.

[/ QUOTE ]yeah but there is almost no reason ever for a country to send a carrier to our shores for assistance.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]

You are correct, I am making that assumption. Assuming it's true, there is no way the US would allow it. [ QUOTE ]
yeah but there is almost no reason ever for a country to send a carrier to our shores for assistance.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what makes it an assumption.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You are correct, I am making that assumption. Assuming it's true, there is no way the US would allow it. [ QUOTE ]
yeah but there is almost no reason ever for a country to send a carrier to our shores for assistance.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what makes it an assumption.

[/ QUOTE ]okay, lets end this.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
The Navy pilots just want to fly and practice carrier landings.

[/ QUOTE ] Those are still full military manoevres.

When you wanna send help, send help - don't send it with strings attached.

...Here's the flag of the Aceh (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/aceh.htm) separatist movement, which kinda explains the nervousness of the Indonesians :


http://flagspot.net/images/i/id-aceh.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Those are still full military manoevres.

[/ QUOTE ] so what? the aren't dropping bombs for practice. They are practicing take offs and landings on a carrier, which seems absurdly hard IMO. Dude, the aircraft was able to respond rapidly, which is something very few boats of the same size can do.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
The aircraft [is] able to respond rapidly, which is something very few boats of the same size can do.

[/ QUOTE ]If you're saying that the carrier's aircrafts are there to fly rescue missions, you'll have to explain to me how. Apart from doing recon, those airplanes are not much help in rescues.

[ThaSaltCracka]

oops, I meant aircraft carrier /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[arabie]

there is no way indonesia would send aid to US for anything so what is your point?

[arabie]

They sent aid without question. After aiding for a while, they ask for a reasnoble favor. It is very insulting to the effort for you to imply that the US would only have helped under specific conditions, because that just isn't the case.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Navy pilots just want to fly and practice carrier landings.

[/ QUOTE ] Those are still full military manoevres.

When you wanna send help, send help - don't send it with strings attached.

...Here's the flag of the Aceh (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/aceh.htm) separatist movement, which kinda explains the nervousness of the Indonesians :


http://flagspot.net/images/i/id-aceh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You know little of which you speak Cyrus. Carrier takeoffs and landings and the unit level training we do in between those two events, hardly constitute "full military maneuvers." We didnt send help with strings attached, we helped and then said, "We'd love to continue to help, but we cant stick around anymore if we cant do some flying in your airspace." As ACPlayer pointed out in another thread, its all about give and take. Indonesia did a lot taking and hasnt done much giving. It was hardly an unreasonable request on the part of the US.

I would however like to thank for demonstrating the near pathological inability of the individuals of your political stripe to acknowledge the goodness of anything the US does. This constant flailing and stretching for any spear that you can find to throw at the USA, especially the present administration, is quite unbecoming and speaks volumes about why President Bush has entered the realm of the two termers.

[elwoodblues]

My point is that when you offer charity, it is boorish to make it conditional on demands that you yourself wouldn't accept if in a similar position.

[vulturesrow]

There is an old cliche, beggars cant be choosers. There is another that goes something like dont look a gift horse in the mouth. At any rate, Cyrus and you are grossly misrepresenting the situation. Its not as if the US cut off all aid from Indonesia. In fact, the helicopters from that carrier were still doing supply missions as the carrier was steaming out.

Personally I think it pretty boorish to rebuff the simple request of a country whose goverment and citizens have gone to extraordinary lengths to assist in the reconstruction of your country.

Here is an analogy for you Elwood? What if you needed 100,000 dollars to keep your house and I gave it to you? Then after I gave you the money, I said I needed to camp out in your back yard for a few days. Would you refuse? Would you find it offense if our situations were reversed in this hypothetical situation of mine and you leant me the money and I said yup thanks, but refused to let you camp in my back yard for a few days?

[lastchance]

US action is appropriate to this lameness.

I just don't know what's going on here though. There's got to be something more to this.

[Cyrus]

Recap:

- The Indonesian gov't is engaged in a vicious civil war with the separatists in Aceh.

- Ergo, the reluctance of the Indonesian gov't to have any foreign army nearby has probably nothing to do with "anti-Americanism". (That was the first point, in response to the original post in the thread, where it was suggested that the US vessels "should levae since they ar enot welcome".)

- Now, the American pilots had to fly missions from the carrier, in order to comply with some Navy regulations. This the Indonesian gov't refused to allow, for reasons (again) not of "anti-Americanism" but (a) because it's a sovereign country, and (b) Aceh.

- I have no idea how far from shore the Indonesian waters are (12 or 200 miles?) but I'm sure that it would not be too difficult for the carrier to step off for a day, do its manoevres and step back in.

That's about the size of it. The whole thing is like a storm in a Thai teacup!

...You are all too quick to point the finger and let fly accusations of "anti-Americanism". Give it a rest.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
They sent aid without question. After aiding for a while, they ask for a reasonable favor.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then it's not "helping without question".
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[Cyrus]

I think the reason for the Indonesian government's refusal to allow U.S. pilots to have their flights has little to do with the silly reasons given in this thread ("anti-Americanism", etc).

The Aceh separatists have declared a unilateral cease fire, in order to allow domestic and foreign aid to reach safely the inhabitants of the area.

The Indonesian government however is playing coy with their own cease fire. I think they don't like the situation in many ways: They must be reluctant to allow the separatists to appear as the good guys; they don't want the Aceh issue to take stage front in the TV cameras; and they are probably manoevering their own soldiers (possibly under guise of aid) in place. They don't want any other armies snooping in right now.