More middle pocket pairs [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Nick Royale

01-12-2005, 07:05 PM

By popular demand I'm posting a sequel to my post from yesterday about middle pocket pairs. Please take the time to read, I know everybody hate multiposting but this one will be intressting /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Similar hand to one I posted yesterday, but this one I think I played fine. But as said before my pocket pair play ain't good, so what do you think? 
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 raises, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, MP3 calls.
I really like re-raising this to get it heads up. 

Flop: (7.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets...

Like the way I played this to, but since I'll probably never trust my pocket pair play I like some opinions. 
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Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.
Always correct to just limp here? I'm fond of raising, but that might be a leak... 

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (5.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks...

Standard? Or is the pot on the flop to small to raise? 
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4.25 BB

If these hands pass the test, I might going to be able to start playing my pocket pairs with confident again.

cold_cash

01-12-2005, 07:11 PM

Hand 1 - I toss unless you know something about MP3 I don't.

Hand 2 - Are you folding the river if he bets? If not, I'd bet.

Hand 3 - Raise pre-flop. After that, eh, okay.

BTW, it's really hard to tell how you played these without any knowledge of your opponents.

milesdyson

01-12-2005, 07:12 PM

Hand 1 I fold preflop.

Hand 2 I raise preflop. This depends on my read of UTG+2.

Hand 3 I raise preflop. I like the flop fold.

Nick Royale

01-12-2005, 07:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 - I toss unless you know something about MP3 I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't, so I'll guess I have to slow down a bit with my PPs.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 - Are you folding the river if he bets? If not, I'd checked.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, didn't think of it when I bet. If this is a player I believe might bluff me if I check, then I'll bet. Otherwise I'll check/fold. The later is probably my standard.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3 - Raise pre-flop. After that, eh, okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that so? So the only hand I didn't consider raising is the one I should have raised. Guess i have a lot of work to do /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, it's really hard to tell how you played these without any knowledge of your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry about the reads, but when I'm mutitabling I only rarely get good reads. I use the few reads I have to adept my play, but I gues I'm looking for a standard play in these situation. And thanks a lot for helping me out here!

FreakDaddy

01-12-2005, 07:35 PM

I'm still a newbie, and I understand your theory of trying to get this heads up, but I'd never 3-bet a middle pair if someone raises from middle position pre-flop. Never.

As far as it being a leak, I think you should do the math on this one and it should be obvious. Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.

Nick Royale

01-12-2005, 07:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 I fold preflop.

Hand 2 I raise preflop. This depends on my read of UTG+2.

Hand 3 I raise preflop. I like the flop fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1: So I guess I'll have to quit this rediculous isolate nonsens.

Hand 2: My instinct told me to raise, my insecurity told me to limp...

Hand 3: Do you like me raising this small pot to? My instinct didn't tell me anything about raising this preflop, though...

Thanks!

cold_cash

01-12-2005, 07:39 PM

Isolating w/ 77 is a good move against some players.

Was MP3 one of those players?

I just got the idea that this was a standard play for you against most pre-flop raisers. (Which would be a leak.)

VBM

01-12-2005, 07:42 PM

Hand 1:
I like a bet/fold line on this turn. If he calls me again, I likely check/fold this river.

Hand 2:
You plan to check/fold or check/call? I don't think he made his straight, but you're beating by any paired T, J, Q. I think I check/fold this...

Hand 3:
I like it!

Nick Royale

01-12-2005, 07:48 PM

I've thought about it and i figure at best my oppanent holds 2 overs, wich will give me only slightly over 50% equity to the river. At the same time he might hold a higher pair, making me a 80% underdog. This makes my overall equity fall bellow 50%. On the other hand I thought I might be able to outplay my oppont, since it will be pretty easy to see when the flop missing my opponent if he have overs. And at the flop he only has about 32% to outdraw me and maybe I'll be able raise him out of the pot before the turn/river. But considering all these "maybes" and that he might play a higher pocket pair, I realise this will be very hard to play profitable postflop. Fold is the way to go in hand 1, and I promise I'll never try to isolate a player with my middle PP's again /images/graemlins/smile.gif

cold_cash

01-12-2005, 07:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still a newbie, and I understand your theory of trying to get this heads up, but I'd never 3-bet a middle pair if someone raises from middle position pre-flop. Never.

As far as it being a leak, I think you should do the math on this one and it should be obvious. Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're saying it's never correct to 3-bet a medium pair with the hope of isolating a pre-flop raiser, consider yourself corrected. (I would 3-bet quite a few 2+2 posters w/ 77 and the button.)

cold_cash

01-12-2005, 07:51 PM

You guys are using the word "never" way, way too much in this thread.

Nick Royale

01-12-2005, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Isolating w/ 77 is a good move against some players.

Was MP3 one of those players?

I just got the idea that this was a standard play for you against most pre-flop raisers. (Which would be a leak.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking back in pokertracker I can see he's loose, but not agressive enough for me to 3-bet here. However, when I got a good read on an agressive player I realise isolating might be good, but I rarely do when I'm multitabling. And about the hand in my post I didn't have a read, and you're right 3-betting middle PP's when likely to get heads up was my standard play and I'm glad you filled my leak. Thanks!

Nick Royale

01-12-2005, 08:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are using the word "never" way, way too much in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess my english vocabulary isn't that great (searched my dictionary for that word). Saying I'll never isolate with my middle PP's is not not take literarely, but i certainly remove it from my standard-list.

Nick Royale

01-12-2005, 08:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you're saying it's never correct to 3-bet a medium pair with the hope of isolating a pre-flop raiser, consider yourself corrected. (I would 3-bet quite a few 2+2 posters w/ 77 and the button.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Intressting. So you're saying you rather use it against what might would be a tight (maybe weak) player to play him of his hand, than against a loose player since you won't be able to play him of is hand and when calling to the river from preflop to river with two overs you won't have a great equity (I read quite a lot between the lines here. My reasoning was it's more likely for a 2+2:er to be weak/tight than loose IMO. On the other hand you said you'll only raise a few 2+2:ers). So what would be your stategy? I thought I'd might 3-bet a loose raiser cause he might not even have a strong draw against me and isolate him would be profitable.

Nick Royale

01-12-2005, 08:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:
I like a bet/fold line on this turn. If he calls me again, I likely check/fold this river.

Hand 2:
You plan to check/fold or check/call? I don't think he made his straight, but you're beating by any paired T, J, Q. I think I check/fold this...

Hand 3:
I like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1: That's my plan.

Hand 2: Check/fold. Yup!

Hand 3: Glad someone liked anything I did /images/graemlins/smile.gif

FreakDaddy

01-12-2005, 08:21 PM

I thought about that when I used the word NEVER and considered taking it out, but then considered even if I had NO read of my opponent in this position, I would still never 3-bet in that position. /images/graemlins/smile.gif This play just isn't profitable in the long run. IMHO